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[Goodbeer]

Hi all.

I've recently made my second all grain hefe.

First one didn't go too well, for a number of reasons. One I think was my recipe, had a crack at making my own, have since decided maybe I was getting a bit ahead of myself.

Tasted like water through first 10 days of fermentation, smelled terrible.

Was going to turf it, but figured I'd bottle it, someone would be happy to drink it..

Normally bottle after two weeks, but was busy and ended up closer to 3.

Upon bottling had started to taste ok, even good.

So Did my second last sat. Went much better. Used what I think is a reasonably simple hefe recipe, 67% Wheat, 27% Pilsner, 6% Flaked wheat...No malto dextrin, couldn't get any.

Went crazy, didn't have a blow off on hand, haven't needed one thus far.

Anyhow tasted on day 3. Had dropped from 1060 to 1022. Tasted exactly like the first, like water....yes I know it was only day 3...

So put one of the last batch on ice to see how it was tasting...only been in the bottle a week, but was curious.

It tasted pretty damn good. Much better than at bottling.

So if anyone is still reading this after all that rambling, my question is at what point does the flavour of a beer resemble that of the finished beer?

And are hefeweizens different to other beers?

Most of the beers I've brewed so far have given a fair indication of final flavour when nearing terminal gravity...But the first hefe I did is the only one to not behave this way.

I'm hoping maybe the one I've got in fv will do the same. Is it common for hefeweizens to take longer to develop a flavour profile?

Thanks for your time

 

[supertonio]

As a Hefeweizen doesn't need much ageing I think it's the high carbonation which changes the mouthfeel and therefore the flavour profile compared to how it is at bottling.

Also as its a yeast driven beer the majority of the flavour work has been done in the mash and fermentation stages and as mentioned above bottle conditioning to get it carbonated is the final step in completing the beer and getting it tasting right.

 

[Goodbeer]

Ok, all makes sense...

So one would think something is going wrong if it tastes like water for the majority of fermentation?

 

[Lindsay Dive]

What yeast did you use???

 

[supertonio]

Ok, all makes sense...

So one would think something is going wrong if it tastes like water for the majority of fermentation?

But as you said in your initial post it tastes good once it has been bottled and carbonated so I really wouldn't worry if it tastes watery in the fermenter.

If you are doing everything right to make a hefe ie proper mash temp,grain and yeast and then it all comes together then keep doing what you're doing unless your noticing a fault in the finished beer.

My opinion is the high carbonation plays a big part in completing this style.

 

[Fraser's BRB]

I've had a number of beers that I had my doubts about in the early stages across multiple styles but have found that with time in keg/bottle and proper carbonation they've turned out to be great beers.

I used to see similar pre-kegging days when I was only prepared to wait two weeks in bottle before drinking. The beer was ok but the ones that were in bottle longer were much better. These days I don't crack a bottle under 4 weeks, but I do have the luxury of a keg system also so I'm rarely left wanting for beer.

 

[Goodbeer]

What yeast did you use???

WLP300 first one, 380 second one.

So I'm worrying about nothing I guess...pretty new to all grain, is the first time I've had any issues...might not even be an issue!

Thanks for the input guys, as always appreciated

 

[Haydos13]

You could always poor off a bit of your finished beer into another glass, leave it for a while to go warm/flat and have a taste. If it tastes dull and watery you can safely assume the carbonation is contributing to the final taste, if it tastes better than the fv samples then maybe the bottle conditioning has improved the overall flavour

 

[mccoullough1]

Yeast makes the biggest flavour profile in wheat beers followed by fermentation temps.
As a guide the higher temp should give you more of a banana favour and clove at lower temp depending on the yeast used.
I only use maximum 60% wheat, with 56% pils, 4% carapils.
Single noble hop at no more than 20IBU
Don't cold crash or use finnings.

 

[Lindsay Dive]

Just something that I have noticed when making wheat beers in general is the Iodophor is your friend. You MUST be super clean when doing these beers. I always replace the fermenters with a new tap and make sure the taps thread are scrubbed with Iodophor and a tooth brush. I also scrub the new tap.

I don't know why it is, however, in my experience, wheat beers are more susceptible to infections that other beers.

 

[MHB]

Hefeweizen is normally about 50/50 pils/wheat (maybe 60/40 either way), very lightly bittered must be made with a Hefeweizen yeast and should taste amazing from the kettle on. It should not require long to develop flavour, in fact the exact opposite, many of the classic Hef flavours are chemically very unstable and drop off very quickly.
My rule of thumb is package 7 days from pitching the yeast, condition for 7 days, drink it all in the next 7 days before the bananas goes by by's.

All the haze should come from the Hef (yeast) the wort should be clear so there is no need for unmalted adjunct (actually it probably hinders rather than helps).
In many ways Hef should be the least complicated and easy to brew, fastest turn around beers you could brew, there is no way staying in the fermenter for more than 7 days is helping the beer.
1.060 is a pretty high OG for a Hef, they are usually closer to 1.045-1.050
Frankly if you want to brew a beer for the first time why not take about 30 seconds to google the style and learn some of the basics before spending time and money ******* it up.

I googled "brewing hefeweizen" first hit is this one from BYO http://byo.com/body/item/2265-german-hefeweizen-style-profile
It tells you a hell of a lot about the style, the best brewing process and gives a very simple recipe that will make a dam good beer if you don't screw it up.

For Gods sake don't leave any beer in the fermenter for more than 2 weeks - never 3 and if there is one style that should be done in 7 days its Hefeweizen!
Mark

 

[dr K]

Spot on....it has been (sadly) a few years since I had a good show at the Nats but my Hefe re-brew (it placed) was as young as possible, given entry dates.
Indeed it was bottled still fermenting !!!!!!
It was also just plain simple..Weyermann Wheat and Pilsener at 50% each, low IBU with ..oddly Ella ...my fav hefe yeast WLP380, no 30 degree thing but a close eye on the mashing schedule.
K

 

[indica86]

For Gods sake don't leave any beer in the fermenter for more than 2 weeks

**** me I wish I could make beer, obviously I have no idea.

 

[Goodbeer]

Hefeweizen is normally about 50/50 pils/wheat (maybe 60/40 either way), very lightly bittered must be made with a Hefeweizen yeast and should taste amazing from the kettle on. It should not require long to develop flavour, in fact the exact opposite, many of the classic Hef flavours are chemically very unstable and drop off very quickly.
My rule of thumb is package 7 days from pitching the yeast, condition for 7 days, drink it all in the next 7 days before the bananas goes by by's.

All the haze should come from the Hef (yeast) the wort should be clear so there is no need for unmalted adjunct (actually it probably hinders rather than helps).
In many ways Hef should be the least complicated and easy to brew, fastest turn around beers you could brew, there is no way staying in the fermenter for more than 7 days is helping the beer.
1.060 is a pretty high OG for a Hef, they are usually closer to 1.045-1.050
Frankly if you want to brew a beer for the first time why not take about 30 seconds to google the style and learn some of the basics before spending time and money ******* it up.

I googled "brewing hefeweizen" first hit is this one from BYO http://byo.com/body/item/2265-german-hefeweizen-style-profile
It tells you a hell of a lot about the style, the best brewing process and gives a very simple recipe that will make a dam good beer if you don't screw it up.

For Gods sake don't leave any beer in the fermenter for more than 2 weeks - never 3 and if there is one style that should be done in 7 days its Hefeweizen!
Mark[/quote

Yep this was the first article I came across when researching hefeweizens...incidentally have found byo to have some great info.

Ended up using a mash schedule from a thread off AHB.

Is funny, with all that has been said, my first one genuinely tasted terrible for first two weeks in fv.

Would bottle after 13 days normally, but bottled after 17.

Been in the bottle near 3 weeks, cracked one after 15 days and it tastes bloody good...certainly wouldn't win any awards, but I've also tasted worse commercial versions.

Anyhow second one going in the bottle tomorrow night. Am hoping it to be much better...was only 1060 due to my own hesitance during brewing, was aiming for 1052.

 

[MHB]

**** me I wish I could make beer, obviously I have no idea.

The only place I have found where anyone recommends leaving beer on the yeast for more than 14 days is AHB.
Every reference book on brewing I have ever read says there WILL not might be measurable harm if you leave it there longer. If a ferment isn't over in 7 days you have either under pitch or the there are problems with the wort nutrition, likely it wasn't properly aerated.

You might get away with not having enough off flavours or other problems to make beer undrinkable by leaving it longer, but it wont improve the beer in any way - a beer doesn't need to smell like a fire in a tyre dump for there to be the start of problems.
The release of Protease A from old and aging yeast will degrade head, the rate of formation of aging carbonyls will increase, the loss of hop flavours is accelerated......

I don't know why its so hard to accept, there are plenty of things in brewing that are required like mash temperature, we can say with confidence that there will be effects from choosing a given temperature within a range. and we know what happens outside that range.
Same with yeast.
Mark

 

[indica86]

You might get away with not having enough off flavours or other problems to make beer undrinkable by leaving it longer, but it wont improve the beer in any way -

Mark I accept that you know more than me so can you explain why bottle conditioning - which is really replicating the initial ferment - works and does not induce the shit results described above?

 

[Lindsay Dive]

The only place I have found where anyone recommends leaving beer on the yeast for more than 14 days is AHB.
Every reference book on brewing I have ever read says there WILL not might be measurable harm if you leave it there longer. If a ferment isn't over in 7 days you have either under pitch or the there are problems with the wort nutrition, likely it wasn't properly aerated.

You might get away with not having enough off flavours or other problems to make beer undrinkable by leaving it longer, but it wont improve the beer in any way - a beer doesn't need to smell like a fire in a tyre dump for there to be the start of problems.
The release of Protease A from old and aging yeast will degrade head, the rate of formation of aging carbonyls will increase, the loss of hop flavours is accelerated......

I don't know why its so hard to accept, there are plenty of things in brewing that are required like mash temperature, we can say with confidence that there will be effects from choosing a given temperature within a range. and we know what happens outside that range.
Same with yeast.
Mark

Your are obviously only talking about Ales, yeah?

 

[manticle]

@indica - Amount of yeast and amount of actual work it's required to do are two factors I believe. Lack of oxygen exposure another. Bottled beer yeast will still eventually break down.

Maybe anecdotal and maybe less strict than '14 days' but in principle I agree. Some beer can benefit from ageing (not hefe) but there's not a lot of benefit being in contact with the bulk of the yeast and if fermentation isn't over, it's likely indicative of other issues. A couple of days post fg is a good idea and if cold conditioning for a few days, I wouldn't personally worry but if my beer is going to age or lager for more than a week, I'll transfer. I have (not 100% of the time) noticed yeast breakdown related flavours and as MHB suggests there is no real benefit from extended contact. Extended ageing for some beer - yes. Just doesn't need a huge cake in its face.

 

[MHB]

Mark I accept that you know more than me so can you explain why bottle conditioning - which is really replicating the initial ferment - works and does not induce the shit results described above?

There are two main reasons
First is population, the peak yeast population during fermentation you might have 100 million cells/mL of beer, by the time you package that should be down to 10-20 thousand cells/mL, something like 0.01 - 0.02% of the amount of yeast that can break down and affect the beer.
Less yeast = less possible harm

Second is the health and the stage of the lifecycle of the yeast. There are lots of components to this one but in summary
When we pitch yeast it reproduces, each "mother cell" can only produce a certain number of "daughters" before it gets so many bud scars that it cant survive, one of the factors involved in the concept of yeast vigor, more older (more scars) yeast preforms less well than younger yeast, as it is less efficient older yeast tends to fall out sooner and break down faster.
Some yeast doesn't switch from the Aerobic reproductive phase to Anaerobic fermentation. In nature Anaerobic conditions are rare so the yeast just sits around looking to get back to the job of making yeast not alcohol, this yeast falls out and will break down fairly quickly.
The yeast that does ferment the beer, as it starts to run out of nutrient (O2, sugars, protein, lipids...) is in effect starving so instead of just going and lying on the bottom, still active and consuming its internal resources, changes its metabolism to survive a drought - so not only is there much less of it, its much slower to die, autolyse and screw with your beer.
Mark

PS that's just a very brief "popular science" why
M

 

[MHB]

Your are obviously only talking about Ales, yeah?

No - perhaps even more important in lager brewing.
We are talking about the primary yeast slab, should be dropped 2-3 days from pitching, and again at or near terminal gravity.
Mark

Edit fat fingers
M