First Wort Hopping

[Trough Lolly]

G'day Tim,
I wouldn't shorten the boil when you FWH. Sure, you might get a small amount of additional bitterness from the hops due to the extra time in hot water at the start, but the temp that the mash runs into the kettle at is nowhere near boiling point, which is what you need for good isomerization of the hop's essences and oils - aka hop extraction efficiency.

From my limited reading on this, it appears that a lot of brewers experience a smoother bittering of the beer and a more agreeable flavour profile - at a guess it's like instant coffee - some prefer to add it to the cup with the milk then add the boiling water, whereas others toss the coffee into the boiled water and then add milk. There is a noticeable difference between adding the hops to hot water and then bringing it up to the boil, versus tossing in the (often frozen) hops when the boil begins...and you can imagine the carnage when taking plant matter from frozen to 100C in an instant!!

At the other end of the process, many like to dry hop and that's primarily done for aroma and flavouring purposes, with a risk of harsh grassiness in the beer from certain hops, cascades are a common culprit, which eventually dissipates over time.

Quality recipe calculators take FWH into account and adjust the expected bittering levels accordingly, but I'd still work on a 1 hour boil as a good starting point...

Cheers,
TL

 

[Millet Man]

From my limited reading on this, it appears that a lot of brewers experience a smoother bittering of the beer and a more agreeable flavour profile.......

[post="122833"][/post]​

TL,

Here's a link to an article I found on the HBD some time ago when I first started using FWHs. It's has some lab testing of IBU levels on FWH beers compared to reference beers, very interesting.

FWH Article

I treat FWH as a 20 minute addition for bitterness and it works for me, great hop flavour using noble varieties.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[beers]

From my limited reading on this, it appears that a lot of brewers experience a smoother bittering of the beer and a more agreeable flavour profile.......

[post="122833"][/post]​

TL,

Here's a link to an article I found on the HBD some time ago when I first started using FWHs. It's has some lab testing of IBU levels on FWH beers compared to reference beers, very interesting.

FWH Article

I treat FWH as a 20 minute addition for bitterness and it works for me, great hop flavour using noble varieties.

Cheers, Andrew.

[post="122869"][/post]​

I've found that it depends on how long the hops are incontact with the hot wort before it comes to the boil. Calculating the IBU's can really be a bit of a "hit & miss" for me as my sparge time is short (I do partials w. only 3kg of grain) & sparge time tends to vary.
Beersmith is set at a default +10% for FWH & I seriously doubt that it come's anywhere close to that. I've recently changed the settings to calculate the IBU's equal to that of a 20min hop addition & make sure that I leave the hops incontact with the hot wort for 45-60mins before bringing to the boil. Seems to be working ok for me.

 

[Trough Lolly]

Millet Man / beers,
Thanks for the feedback - I agree that the exact calculation of additional bitterness is a tricky one, but I won't argue with Promash on this one! The article suggests that FWH adds just under 10% to the IBU's and I'd guessed that much especially since the sparges I do are slow and lengthy. Anyway, I've done this stout many times so I'll see how much better or otherwise it is, with the FHW'ing.

Cheers,
TL

 

[mje1980]

I recently did an all fwh bitter. I calc'd as a 20 min addition. There was 40g challenger, and 30g EKG, Both 6.6 and 5.6 % repectively. Calc'd, it was 27 ibu's in a 1038 bitter. I do these beers a lot, and it tasted pretty much exactly the same as all the other bitters i have done at those gravities and ibu's, except the bitterness was MUCH smoother, and there was a bit of flavour. I dont know what the calcs would be for those same hops boiled for a straight 60 min bittering hop addition, but i doubt i would have been able to drink it like that. I use beertools btw.

Edit: i just went to beertools, and punched the hops in at 60 mins. Came out at 58 ibu's. No way i could drink a 1038 bitter with that amount of bitterness. But, i guess everyone has different tastes, and also procedures. More interesting info.

 

[beers]

I recently did an all fwh bitter. I calc'd as a 20 min addition. There was 40g challenger, and 30g EKG, Both 6.6 and 5.6 % repectively. Calc'd, it was 27 ibu's in a 1038 bitter. I do these beers a lot, and it tasted pretty much exactly the same as all the other bitters i have done at those gravities and ibu's, except the bitterness was MUCH smoother, and there was a bit of flavour. I dont know what the calcs would be for those same hops boiled for a straight 60 min bittering hop addition, but i doubt i would have been able to drink it like that. I use beertools btw.

Edit: i just went to beertools, and punched the hops in at 60 mins. Came out at 58 ibu's. No way i could drink a 1038 bitter with that amount of bitterness. But, i guess everyone has different tastes, and also procedures. More interesting info.

[post="123049"][/post]​

The conclusion I've come to [ie. more than likely, the wrong conclusion ] is that FWH moreso produces a beer with a lower IBU than a "smoother bitterness"

 

[Stuster]

The conclusion I've come to [ie. more than likely, the wrong conclusion ] is that FWH moreso produces a beer with a lower IBU than a "smoother bitterness"

[post="123099"][/post]​

I think it's not really right. There seems to be some reaction occcuring during FWHing that changes the structure of the hop compounds that are produced. I found this article an interesting read. :blink: Maybe I should be getting out a bit more.

 

[beers]

yeah thats just my thoughts.. I've read that article awhile back whilst I was trying to figure out what utilization % I should set beersmith to for FWH additions.. It was a long search in which I came up with figures ranging from -65% ( http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....fca928ca66df20a ) to -10% & +10%
( http://www.promash.com/proboard_archive/20...sages/2847.html ) :huh:
confusement :unsure:

EDIT: This link is worth checking out too. It's a post written by Eric Watson of Titletown Brewing:
http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.p...1252&highlight=


"It turns out that the albumin (that white scum) entrains hop constituants if it is present. This results in lower hop utilization and a reduction in head retention. In prior German studies, the practice of first wort hopping was thought to impart a "smoother" bitterness. What they did not take into account that this perception was due to a decreased alpha/beta utilization and loss of myrcene, cohumulone and other essentials in the albumin, not the supposed "more gentle extraction." "

 

[mikem108]

Having done both I reckon the bitterness for FWH is calculated lower because a decent hot break coats the sides of your kettle with hops and protiens so you loose the potential to utilise the bitterness from those hops.......maybe

 

[Stuster]

Wow, beers. Just read the last post you linked to. Very, very interesting stuff. I will be making some changes to my brewing methods based on that.

In brief, Eric recommends not oxygenating the wort but only the starter, claims that German research has shown dextrins do NOT provide mouthfeel, suggests that a 20 minute mash should be enough for conversion, and that first wort hopping is not that useful a technique.

Not sure how I will aerate a 100ml starter with an aeration stone. Perhaps there are tiny ones just for this. Will a stir plate aerate the starter enough?

Essential reading. Now to find out more. :lol:

 

[bindi]

After reading This posted by Beers above and having just put my first addition FWH in I am now starting to wonder I have been FWH for awhile, just thought I would revive this topic.
Thoughts anyone <_< ?
Time to get it boiling.

 

[Stuster]

It's an interesting article for sure but it's from 2004. I've looked around the web for more article like this and haven't seen anything else written against FWH and lots for. Did you like the hoppiness from the FWH beers you have made?

 

[beers]

After reading This posted by Beers above and having just put my first addition FWH in I am now starting to wonder I have been FWH for awhile, just thought I would revive this topic.
Thoughts anyone <_< ?
Time to get it boiling.

1st wort hopping is great IMO. I don't FWH every beer anymore (I went through a phase of fwhing everything), but I still do it from time to time. I do find that head retention does seem to suffer & that calculating IBU's can be a bit of guess work but for hoppy APA's it works a treat

 

[bindi]

1st wort hopping is great IMO. I don't FWH every beer anymore (I went through a phase of fwhing everything), but I still do it from time to time. I do find that head retention does seem to suffer & that calculating IBU's can be a bit of guess work but for hoppy APA's it works a treat
[/quote]


Interesting you say head retention suffers <_< this has not been my experience.

 

[KoNG]

i FWH alot/most of my beers, i like the results.!
i have also started LWH "last wort hopping" (i just made this term up.!?!?), but what i mean is, that using the "no chill" method, i add my flame out hops to the cube instead of the kettle. i dont have enough data on LWH as yet to post any significant results. (others may tho.)

 

[bindi]

i FWH alot/most of my beers, i like the results.!
i have also started LWH "last wort hopping" (i just made this term up.!?!?), but what i mean is, that using the "no chill" method, i add my flame out hops to the cube instead of the kettle. i dont have enough data on LWH as yet to post any significant results. (others may tho.)

LWH I do the same, did it today, I tie the hops in a hop bag and use fishing line which I secure to the handle and when I squeese the air out of the cube I still get a good seal and makes it easy to pull out later, the only time I had trouble getting the bag out was when I used Nelson Sauvin flowers, big swallon bag of flowers comming out of a small hole.

 

[KoNG]

I've only used pellets for this little operation... much easier to remove.

 

[warrenlw63]

Maybe some plugs or whole hops stuffed in a sanitised Kong. No muss, no fuss. No blocked transfer hose. Only problem I could see is your dog trying to get his nose in your cube. :lol: :lol:

Warren -