First Southern Californian Biab.

[Scruffy]

Hello to fellow brewers in OZ! I'm attempting to bring the BIAB method to Southern California and need some advice. My first batch achieved 82% efficiency but I think it was a fluke. Since then (4 more batches) I've only got the high 60's. I did change from a 30 liter pot to a 57 liter and I think my trouble is knowing how much water to use. I've seen ratios from 1.5 liters per kg all the way down to 0.4 per kg.

My brew club is skeptical and I know this is a viable method. What's the right formula?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

Jim K.

I hope no-one minds - esp the OP, sorry JimK, but you have your own thread now dude...

 

[Scruffy]

Sorry if this comes across as bit harsh, but what is your understanding of Efficiency? I'm guessing it's the amount of sugars you can expect to extract from the grain, yes? Have a little play with one or two of the brewing softwares around... Beersmith is the one I use (as a guide - none should be taken as absolute gospel you understand!). Beersmith allows you to enter details of your rig (pot). You can then enter amount of grain and amount of water (and it will adjust for any losses you might encounter (odd curves in the pot and/or amount of irretrievable water soaked into grain, plus if you boil, your evaporation rates and then adjust for losses to crud/crap/trub you're left with at the bottom of your pot after cooling...) there's loads of stuff to consider... or there isn't. It depends on your goal. If you wanted 25 litres of 1055 gravity wort and your system gave you 25 litres of 1045 wort, you could either shrug it off and brew, or boil for a bit longer to get your expected gravity. Then you could look into the contributing factors... I need to pour myself another now, but I'll be back shortly...

 

[katzke]

How much water is easy.

You put all the water in the pot you need to get the final volume of wort you want in the fermenter. You want 6 gallons in the fermenter then you start with 6 and add what you leave behind in the kettle and add boil off and add what little the grain will absorb. I find that I need around 8.5 gallons for a normal brew. Less for low gravity low hop brews and more for high gravity high hop brews.

You do some reading on this site and you will find an excel sheet for calculating water. Or you can look at what ThirstyBoy has posted about how to calculate water. Yes it is a bit of reading and you need to convert from there dang liters of kittens method to gallons. It is worth the few evenings it will take to read through all the BIAB threads.

Sorry for not directly answering your question. If you are going to be any good at selling this to your brew club you need to be able to answer all there dumb questions. I know, been there done that. I still have people that can not understand why it did not work for them when they mashed in a bag and sparged just like normal.

By the way my wife won a 3rd in our BJCP club comp last year in a blended IPA category. Can not remember how many entries but it was the largest category in the comp with around 25 entries. The honor defending brew is in the fermenter getting ready as I type.

I have also done a 100% wheat beer for a smash comp. Need to work on the hope choice to improve it. Also won first place with an American style Wit in 2 of our local fairs. American style Wit, yes. Can you tell I am not into brewing to style? Do not care for Belgian yeast and have a bag of raw wheat to use up. BIAB is great as the gooey mess can be brewed with no worries of stuck sparges.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Jim,

In your big pot, the simplest and easiest thing to do, is basic BIAB - which is a no sparge, full volume mash.

Your water to grain ratio is simple... you use all your water, yes, every last drop - at the very start. You water to grain ratio is a result of how much grain you use and the volume you want... not something you set at the start as a target.

I'm sorry but its going to be metric from here on in.

You will be looking at a water to grain (usually referred to as liquor to grist ratio or L:G) of about 6-7L per kg of grain in a simple BIAB and there is no sparge step at all. This level of L:G ratio will almost certainly cause your brew club members to tell you that your mash wont work properly - the no sparge thing will cause them to tell you that even if it did you efficiency will be lucky to much over 50% ... they will be wrong.

If you want to work out the water need from scratch you start from your desired post boil volume, add in the amount you boil off, add in the amount that will be absorbed by the grains and thats it... thats the amount you mash in with. The whole amount of water. Your brew club guys will be able to help with these numbers I am sure - Things to remember with BIAB are that the grain absorbs less of the water, only about 0.5-0.75L per kg of grain and that there is no deadspace of any description for your mash.

If on the other hand you are happy to have a computer do some of the hard work for you - AHB member and BIAB crusader Pistol Patch has created a spreadsheet that does the work for you. This is my copy, which I have tweaked a tiny bit; and I am pretty sure PP has a later version, but this will give you the information you are looking for. As you will see when you open it, the spread sheet enables you to refine your figures over 5 brews and zero in on getting exactly the right volumes for your system. It works very well indeed and is a great bit of work by Pat.

View attachment BIAB_Equipment_Set_Up_Volumes_140909.xls

And here are a set of BIAB FAQ's that I wrote some time ago - Pat has used some of this stuff for the FAQ's on his site and they will be much more extensive than this document. But this will still answer a lot of your questions and hopefully some of those from your brewclub members (some of it will also make them mad). Remember - this is the way I think BIAB is best done - a simple full volume, no sparge version. Its not the only way, just what I reckon.

View attachment BIAB_FAQs.doc

Hope this helps

Thirsty

 

[jkoontz65]

Whew, OK, where to start. First, Scruffy, thanks for the thread. I picked up on the 1st BIAB over yonder and didn't fully consider my post. No offense taken. Right! onward...

<<Scruffy said: Sorry if this comes across as bit harsh, but what is your understanding of Efficiency? I'm guessing it's the amount of sugars you can expect to extract from the grain, yes? Have a little play with one or two of the brewing softwares around... Beersmith is the one I use>>

Not harsh at all...I have Brewsmith and have entered several of the all-grain recipes but I just can't seem to get the hang of how to enter my water amount and I haven't found a way to alter the grain absorption factor, either. I selected single infusion one step mash as Bradley suggests in his blog and entered my entire preboil volume target and the amount seems way off. I'm probably just not using it right. I'll keep tweaking. Thanks for the info!

<<katzke said: By the way my wife won a 3rd in our BJCP club comp last year in a blended IPA category.>><<If you are going to be any good at selling this to your brew club you need to be able to answer all there dumb questions.>>

Congratulations! My wife is trying to goad me into entering one of mine but I want to get this technique down first. Maybe Scotch Ale or a California Common. Better halves who brew are definite keepers!

I'm looking forward to the questions. In my book the only stupid question is an unasked one Seriously, I've been researching the forums far and wide and am slogging my way through the original thread on this forum that started the whole thing. Need to be ready to educate the experienced fly spargers with their computer temperature controlled decoction step mashes!



<<Thirsty Boy said: Your water to grain ratio is simple... you use all your water, yes, every last drop - at the very start.>>

Thirsty, that much I get. What I guess I was trying to ask is how much to people figure goes to grain absorption. Which you answer, "the grain absorbs less of the water, only about 0.5-0.75L per kg of grain" What's this about no deadspace, though? I thought that was the amount left after draining the cooled wort off the trub in the bottom of the kettle. Equal to about 2L or so.

Thanks loads for the spreadsheets and FAQs! Looks like this will stand in for Brewsmith quite nicely as it's purpose built for BIAB.

Thanks to all of you for the quick and friendly replies. SoCal will be brewing in a bag before they know what hit them!

Jim K.

 

[katzke]

A long time ago I gave up on BeerSmith. I could never get it to work out my water and was always tweaking the recipe based on what I calculated by hand. I know there is some info on here on how someone figured it out or got at least close for BIAB.

I use an excel spreadsheet that I modified for my system and BIAB. It is based on SUDS. The water spreadsheet helped a bunch in the modification. I would post it but would hear no end as it is in pounds and gallons.

I am working on adding a step where it will nail my water dead nuts on with trub and hops but have not started it yet. Our last brew with over 8 ounces of hops came in low on volume. The gravity was spot on so I can not complain much as I did not even consider the extra hops. This method gives me the most accurate recipe calculations that I have ever had. It is not a perfect solution but it is the best I have found.

 

[eamonnfoley]

A long time ago I gave up on BeerSmith. I could never get it to work out my water and was always tweaking the recipe based on what I calculated by hand. I know there is some info on here on how someone figured it out or got at least close for BIAB.

I use an excel spreadsheet that I modified for my system and BIAB. It is based on SUDS. The water spreadsheet helped a bunch in the modification. I would post it but would hear no end as it is in pounds and gallons.

I am working on adding a step where it will nail my water dead nuts on with trub and hops but have not started it yet. Our last brew with over 8 ounces of hops came in low on volume. The gravity was spot on so I can not complain much as I did not even consider the extra hops. This method gives me the most accurate recipe calculations that I have ever had. It is not a perfect solution but it is the best I have found.

There is a mash profile somebody set up for BIAB - but its not of much use to me really, as I use beersmith based on brewhouse efficiency and boil figures.

I made a spreadsheet I use for BIAB (at home) that considers water loss to grain (0.7L per kg) during mash, boiloff, cooling, trub etc and then I also have the figures (cooling loss, trub etc) in the equipment profile in beersmith. Get your brewhouse efficiency right, tweak, and your away. My boil vol in beersmith matches my boil vol in my spreadsheet.

Essentially the BIAB mash figures are better done on a spreadsheet, then match the boil volume to your beersmith boil volume. And get your brewhouse efficiency right based on your records (which I factor to include everything including loss to trub). Mine is about 67%

 

[Scruffy]

To give you some idea, I throw in about 2 x 20l cubes worth of water into a 60litre pot., bring it up to temp and bung the grain in (there's usually between 6-8KG - I make 'em on the strong side...). Mash for 90 minutes (I mash in stages, but this is beyond the scope of the brief description). Once mashed I raise the bag and drain, then boil the daylights out of it for 90 minutes, usually end up with about 21-23 litres of predicted gravity into the fermenter..., I've done double batches, but lose a bit of efficiency... having said all that I'm probably the most cavalier brewer I know...
I'd start on the practical straight away! Maybe do some stove top experiments...

There's a bunch of helpful tools available for various smart phones - Brewzor for Android... Brewpal for iPhone etc... that help you calculate losses and additions and temp adjustments etc...

 

[jkoontz65]

A long time ago I gave up on BeerSmith. I could never get it to work out my water and was always tweaking the recipe based on what I calculated by hand. I know there is some info on here on how someone figured it out or got at least close for BIAB.

I use an excel spreadsheet that I modified for my system and BIAB. It is based on SUDS. The water spreadsheet helped a bunch in the modification. I would post it but would hear no end as it is in pounds and gallons.

I am working on adding a step where it will nail my water dead nuts on with trub and hops but have not started it yet. Our last brew with over 8 ounces of hops came in low on volume. The gravity was spot on so I can not complain much as I did not even consider the extra hops. This method gives me the most accurate recipe calculations that I have ever had. It is not a perfect solution but it is the best I have found.

katzke, would you mind passing along that spreadsheet? jim_koontz AT yahoo.com

I'm open to looking at as many tools as I can get my mitts on. The more I understand the relationships, better.

Thanks in advance!

JimK.

 

[jkoontz65]

To give you some idea, I throw in about 2 x 20l cubes worth of water into a 60litre pot., bring it up to temp and bung the grain in (there's usually between 6-8KG - I make 'em on the strong side...). Mash for 90 minutes (I mash in stages, but this is beyond the scope of the brief description). Once mashed I raise the bag and drain, then boil the daylights out of it for 90 minutes, usually end up with about 21-23 litres of predicted gravity into the fermenter..., I've done double batches, but lose a bit of efficiency... having said all that I'm probably the most cavalier brewer I know...
I'd start on the practical straight away! Maybe do some stove top experiments...

There's a bunch of helpful tools available for various smart phones - Brewzor for Android... Brewpal for iPhone etc... that help you calculate losses and additions and temp adjustments etc...

You're boiling down 40L to 23??!! Scruffy, pardon my saying so (being new and all) but that's not cavalier, that's a direct contribution to global warming

So, here's my sticking point. I can't seem to find any two posts across the interwebs that agree on how much water is absorbed by grain. I've seen 0.7L all the way to 2L per kg. I guess I'm just trying to nail down a starting point and adjust from there. My experience has been a very low volume absorbed. In the vicinity of 1/2 a liter or so. By this reckoning, I need about 35L water to 7.5kg of grain. Does that sound about right? Here's the formula I'm using: (Grain Bill x Absorption Rate per Kilo) + Dead Space + Boil Off per Hour + Final Volume. With the numbers plugged in it looks like this (assuming a 90 minute boil)... (7.5kg x .5L) + 1.5L + 8.75L + 21L = 3.75L + 31.25L = 35L The assumption here is the absorption rate. Does a thinner mash yield up more sugar? If that's the case then I just make it thin then boil the bejesus out of it until I end up with the right volume/gravity? The only issue here is when to add hops to get the correct extractions. Am I making this too complicated? Should I go back to extract brewing?

Also, (a bit off topic) but do you measure pre-boil gravity to find out if you've hit the mark? If so, how do you know? Would the pre-gravity be X points higher that the target gravity into the fermenter?

So many questions so little beer! I'm stuck on the train home and can only talk about beer...better than nothing I guess B)

Thanks for the help!

JimK

 

[joecast]

way to go jimk. i have to commend your effort as home brewing in socal of any method is quite a noble cause considering all the fantastic and (comparatively) inexpensive commercial beer around. next time i head over that way we will have to organize a BIAB swap. cheers.
joe

 

[marksfish]

use the tools above as a guide and keep good records on your system as they all seem to vary a bit, after a few brews you will dial in your setup turning out killer biab beers.

 

[katzke]

My experience has been a very low volume absorbed. In the vicinity of 1/2 a liter or so. By this reckoning, I need about 35L water to 7.5kg of grain. Does that sound about right? Here's the formula I'm using: (Grain Bill x Absorption Rate per Kilo) + Dead Space + Boil Off per Hour + Final Volume. With the numbers plugged in it looks like this (assuming a 90 minute boil)... (7.5kg x .5L) + 1.5L + 8.75L + 21L = 3.75L + 31.25L = 35L The assumption here is the absorption rate. Does a thinner mash yield up more sugar? If that's the case then I just make it thin then boil the bejesus out of it until I end up with the right volume/gravity? The only issue here is when to add hops to get the correct extractions. Am I making this too complicated? Should I go back to extract brewing?

Not checking your math it looks right. You need to remember that BIAB is no different then a normal mash brew. The only number that is different is the grain absorption. Boil off will be the same and what you leave in the kettle will be the same. We have no loss in the mash tun because we do not have one. The water we use is about the same as a normal mash. We just put it all in at the beginning.

If you squeeze the bag good and set it aside to drain for a bit you will get down to that low of absorption.

So when you start to boil you will have the same amount of liquid as if you used a mash tun. Hop usage will not be any different. The exception to that is people that give you a recipe based on a 6 gallon boil when they say they get 5 gallons out of the fermentor. Just not possible if they boil it.

I will work on getting a clean copy of my modified SUDS to you. You will need to figure your boil off and your left in the kettle amount. It is different for each brewer. Nothing wrong with having a bit extra wort or even a bit less when you get started. It takes a bit to dial in a system.

Also, (a bit off topic) but do you measure pre-boil gravity to find out if you've hit the mark? If so, how do you know? Would the pre-gravity be X points higher that the target gravity into the fermenter?

So many questions so little beer! I'm stuck on the train home and can only talk about beer...better than nothing I guess B)

Thanks for the help!

JimK

Pre boil gravity is lower because you have more water in the wort. The formula is easy. Volume times the last digits of the gravity. So 1.040 and 10 gallons would give you 400 points. If you end up with 8 gallons it should be 1.050 as 50 times 8 is 400.

You need some good brewing books or magazines to pass the time on the train.

 

[jkoontz65]

way to go jimk. i have to commend your effort as home brewing in socal of any method is quite a noble cause considering all the fantastic and (comparatively) inexpensive commercial beer around. next time i head over that way we will have to organize a BIAB swap. cheers.
joe

Cheers to you and thanks for the kudos! I'm in Moreno Valley and hang out on the weekends at MoreBeer in Riverside. www.morebeer.com They do demos every 1st & 3rd Saturday (one Sat. is extract and the next is extract and AG) and often have a BBQ going to boot. Very knowledgeable bunch and the most fantastic collection of equipment and ingredients I've ever seen in a 25 square foot room If you are ever this way let me know and we'll try a swap.

Jim K.

 

[jkoontz65]

<<katzke said: You will need to figure your boil off and your left in the kettle amount. It is different for each brewer. Nothing wrong with having a bit extra wort or even a bit less when you get started. It takes a bit to dial in a system.>>

OK, so just a little more experience before I boil over The 82% on my first go round really set a pretty high bar for me and losing 20 points in the next 3 batches was more than a bit of a let down. The saving grace is the beer still tastes better than anything I can buy for the same money it cost to brew. Even if it is "near beer" :beer:

Thanks for the help and I'll be sure to post the results from the next batches with full details for the experts to parse. :icon_cheers:

 

[jkoontz65]

<<katzke said: You will need to figure your boil off and your left in the kettle amount. It is different for each brewer. Nothing wrong with having a bit extra wort or even a bit less when you get started. It takes a bit to dial in a system.>>

OK, so just a little more experience before I boil over The 82% on my first go round really set a pretty high bar for me and losing 20 points in the next 3 batches was more than a bit of a let down. The saving grace is the beer still tastes better than anything I can buy for the same money it cost to brew. Even if it is "near beer" :beer:

Thanks for the help and I'll be sure to post the results from the next batches with full details for the experts to parse. :icon_cheers:

OK, I have several more batches under my belt and have only nailed my starting gravity once or twice. Most times I'm missing it by a point to a point and a half (1.046 instead of 1.056, for instance). The few times I have reached my target have been v-e-r-y long mashes, 120 minutes or more, which seems extreme. My wife has suggested longer boils to bring down the final volume thereby increasing the gravity, which is extremely intelligent, but I started BIAB for two reasons; one to get into all-grain without the capital outlay and two, to reduce my brew day. My stop is coming up...more later.

Thanks!!

JimK

 

[katzke]

OK, I have several more batches under my belt and have only nailed my starting gravity once or twice. Most times I'm missing it by a point to a point and a half (1.046 instead of 1.056, for instance). The few times I have reached my target have been v-e-r-y long mashes, 120 minutes or more, which seems extreme. My wife has suggested longer boils to bring down the final volume thereby increasing the gravity, which is extremely intelligent, but I started BIAB for two reasons; one to get into all-grain without the capital outlay and two, to reduce my brew day. My stop is coming up...more later.

Thanks!!

JimK

That is not a point, it is 10 to 15 points.

I assume you are saying your target pre-ferment gravity was low. How was your volume? It is all related.

Are your mash temps correct? Have you checked your thermometer? Do you stir the mash?

What was the last recipe? Include water volumes.

 

[jkoontz65]

That is not a point, it is 10 to 15 points.

I assume you are saying your target pre-ferment gravity was low. How was your volume? It is all related.

Are your mash temps correct? Have you checked your thermometer? Do you stir the mash?

What was the last recipe? Include water volumes.

katzke,

Correct, my gravity into the fermenter is low. Latest recipe follows:

Mini - Mash Oktoberfest -38 liter batch

3.63kg Pale Malt(2-row)
3.63kg Ultralight Malt Extract
1.81kg Munich
0.45kg Caravienne
0.45kg Caramunich
0.45kg Aromatic
57g Hallertauer Hops 60 min.
57g Czech Saaz Hops 2 min.

2 Whirlfloc tablets (clarifier)

OG estimate based on 75% efficiency - 1.056 - 1.060
Actual gravity into fermenter - 1.045

Strike water - 49 liters
Strike temp - 79C
Grain/extract temp - 24C
Mash temp - 71C
Mash time - 120 minutes (4 homebrews in metric )
Stir once every half hour for about a minute
Temp after one hour - 68C
Temp at mash out - 66C
Boil volume - 45 liters
Volume into fermenter - 42 liters

I'm thinking of grinding my grain twice. Currently I'm using the standard grind from my LHBS and it may be too coarse for BIAB.

Any insights are greatly appreciated.

JimK

 

[katzke]

katzke,

Correct, my gravity into the fermenter is low. Latest recipe follows:

Mini - Mash Oktoberfest -38 liter batch


3.63kg Ultralight Malt Extract


OG estimate based on 75% efficiency - 1.056 - 1.060
Actual gravity into fermenter - 1.045

Strike water - 49 liters
Strike temp - 79C
Grain/extract temp - 24C
Mash temp - 71C
Mash time - 120 minutes (4 homebrews in metric )
Stir once every half hour for about a minute
Temp after one hour - 68C
Temp at mash out - 66C
Boil volume - 45 liters
Volume into fermenter - 42 liters

I'm thinking of grinding my grain twice. Currently I'm using the standard grind from my LHBS and it may be too coarse for BIAB.

Any insights are greatly appreciated.

JimK

Someone else will have to run the numbers cause I do not brew with litters of kittens I brew in gallons and pounds. At first I though you were light on grain, then I noticed you are using extract for part of the bill. Still not sure what the numbers would work out to.

You probably are getting poor efficiency because you are mashing as if you were brewing all grain. I think you will find your efficiency going up by using 100% grain with your water volume (you will need to add some for the extra grain absorption) or reducing your water volume to match the grain you are using then adding water when you add the extract.

If the drop in efficiency follows the new pot, double batches and partial mashes then I am sure of my thoughts.

 

[jkoontz65]

I think you will find your efficiency going up by using 100% grain with your water volume (you will need to add some for the extra grain absorption) or reducing your water volume to match the grain you are using then adding water when you add the extract.

Brilliant! Hadn't thought that I was using too much water. However, I have experienced the loss in efficiency when I brew all grain as well. Here's the last recipe that I did all grain...

10.5 lbs 2 row
2.25 lbs Crystal 75
.5 lbs. Crystal 120

.5 oz. Centennial @ 60
1.0 oz. Cascade @ 30
.5 oz. Cascade @ flameout
.5 oz. Centennial @ flameout

Strike water 7 gallons
Strike temp 170F
Grain temp 75F
Mash In temp 165F
Mash time 120 minutes stirring every half hour for about a minute
Mash out temp 155F
Boil volume 6.25 gallons
Volume into fermenter 5.5 gallons
Estimated OG 1.065
Measured gravity into fermenter 1.040
Final gravity 1.015

Apologies to our friends in OZ for the Imperial units This is half the batch previously posted and the temps are the same.

JimK