First Partial Mash - Advice Required

[gfish]

Hi all,

Just picked up some gear for my forst partial mash. Was given some advice when I bought the gear, but it contradicts (slightly) the advice I have read. If anyone can help, would be great to confirm I'm on the right track before I start...

The recipe is for a Stone and Wood Draught Ale Clone. I have the following:

-Mac's Saaze Pale Ale Can of goo,
-Brewcraft Australian Pale Ale Kit Converter
-500g (enzyme content) wheat malt grain

I was told that the cracked malt grain should be boiled at 70-degrees in 3L water for approx 45minutes to 1 hour, Strain and transfer to another 3L water @ 70 degrees. Add the 2 x 3L extract to the mix.

Does this sound correct? Also, I am planning on doing this on a gas stove, checking the temp every now and then using a candy thermometer.

I'd appreciate any advice. I was thinking it would be best to get an urn, but if I can do successfully on the stove, it would save me some cash.

Thanks in advance for any help guys/girls. Hope this works as I'd like to progress to an AG in the near future!

Adam.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Use the 2nd 3L of water to "wash" the grains (called sparging), this will get out the sugars that aren't already extracted and now contained in the first 3L. I prefer 76 degree water for sparging, as this dissolves sugars still solid from 70 deg water, but others put it in the too hard category.

Once you get the concept of mashing (soaking) and sparging (washing the grains with new water), AG is a hop (literally), skip and jump from here.


Goomba

 

[gfish]

Use the 2nd 3L of water to "wash" the grains (called sparging), this will get out the sugars that aren't already extracted and now contained in the first 3L. I prefer 76 degree water for sparging, as this dissolves sugars still solid from 70 deg water, but others put it in the too hard category.

Goomba, thanks for the advice. Makes sense. I'll try and stay at 76 degrees for the second 'sparging' stage.

I guess I just need another pot to use as a transfer container.

Do you recommend getting an urn, or will gas hib be ok to acheive 76 degrees. Sounds a bit tough...

Thanks again. Much appreciated.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Even your fermenter (so long as it is santised by this time) can be used as a temporary holder.

I don't own an urn and have knocked out lots of BIAB batches, just using my 2 x 19L big W pots ($19 each). I started with one, and picked up the second on special. On an electric stove.

So gas will work fine. Just maintain the temp and try not to get above 78 deg, as this will release tannins (tea like bitterness). Some also use thermos for such a small quantity, as it maintains the temp without applying extra heat.


Goomba

 

[gfish]

Even your fermenter (so long as it is santised by this time) can be used as a temporary holder.

I don't own an urn and have knocked out lots of BIAB batches, just using my 2 x 19L big W pots ($19 each). I started with one, and picked up the second on special. On an electric stove.

So gas will work fine. Just maintain the temp and try not to get above 78 deg, as this will release tannins (tea like bitterness). Some also use thermos for such a small quantity, as it maintains the temp without applying extra heat.


Goomba

Thanks again. I will try and find a large enough thermos (would it be correct to heat to about 80 degrees in the hope that it will be 76 degrees after transfer?)

Sorry for inane questions.

Adam.

 

[Dazza_devil]

I have a relevant question to which the answer may be of benefit to both of us Adam.
When partial brewers use a seperate container or a colander to sparge in, how do they avoid airation of the hot wort when transfering the resulting liquid to the main wort?

In answer to your last question, if you mash-out at 76 degrees for 10 mins or so while stirring then I'm guessing there wouldn't be much of a heat loss from your sparge strike temperature of 76 degrees if you transfer promptly. Probably better to under shoot 78 with the option of adding hot water rather risk tannins. This is what I plan to do but haven't put it into practise as yet.

 

[Jimboley]

I have a relevant question to which the answer may be of benefit to both of us Adam.
When partial brewers use a seperate container or a colander to sparge in, how do they avoid airation of the hot wort when transfering the resulting liquid to the main wort?

In answer to your last question, if you mash-out at 76 degrees for 10 mins or so while stirring then I'm guessing there wouldn't be much of a heat loss from your sparge strike temperature of 76 degrees if you transfer promptly. Probably better to under shoot 78 with the option of adding hot water rather risk tannins. This is what I plan to do but haven't put it into practise as yet.

Aeration of the grain liquor before adding the yeast is fine, it's actually beneficial for the yeast.

It's aeration after the yeast has been added that is the problem, oxidization is nasty post pitch.

Hope this helps you out

Cheers
:icon_cheers:

 

[RdeVjun]

I have a relevant question to which the answer may be of benefit to both of us Adam.
When partial brewers use a seperate container or a colander to sparge in, how do they avoid airation of the hot wort when transfering the resulting liquid to the main wort?

In answer to your last question, if you mash-out at 76 degrees for 10 mins or so while stirring then I'm guessing there wouldn't be much of a heat loss from your sparge strike temperature of 76 degrees if you transfer promptly. Probably better to under shoot 78 with the option of adding hot water rather risk tannins. This is what I plan to do but haven't put it into practise as yet.

I'm not a partial brewer, but a stovetop BIABer, so I think I can safely share my experiences. Don't worry about aeration of hot wort at the home brewing scale, it just hasn't been a concern or verifiable issue, perhaps more like an armchair fairy tale or at best the well- meaning but perhaps mistaken transfer of some commercial protocols to home brewing scales.

Apropos sparge/ mashout water temp and tannins, I found there's not too much point in being overly concerned about the temperature or duration as it really makes very little, if any difference. So long as the water is hot, not alkaline and it is dunked for about 10 minutes and drained thoroughly, you'll reap those few extra points of residual sugars without risking any tannin issues, and sometimes more than just a few measly points- I've used from warm to near- boiling water and never experienced any tannin issues. I think it may be another of those fairy tales that we understood were of significance at certain scales but in practice are actually trivial or non- existent when translated into a domestic setting.

Aeration, or at least vigorous agitation can in some circumstances be beneficial after the yeast has inoculated the wort, eg. Yorkshire stone squares, but I'd be cautious doing so after fermentation has progressed much, I'm guessing that the by- products which give our beer those desirable characteristics can be easily oxidised and corrupted, so I try to minimise that by treating inoculated wort as gently as possible.

gfish, the 19L stockpot may reach over two gas burners, that's how I speed up the boil process, then when its boiling I just move it to the one. That stockpot can be a really cheap and low- risk entry into all sorts of brewing, I thoroughly recommend novice and more experienced brewers getting one for extract, partial and AG stovetop BIAB. If you haven't got a gas stove or the one you have isn't up to the job, a $20 camping gas cooker is no slouch and really pumps the heat out, available from camping/ outdoors, big double ewe and similar chain stores.

My 2c, hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

 

[Dazza_devil]

This is from Palmer's - How to Brew

'You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80F.​

Oxidation of your wort can happen in several ways. The first is by splashing or aerating the wort while it is hot. Other beginning-brewing books advocate pouring the hot wort after the boil into cold water in the fermenter to cool it and add oxygen for the yeast. Unfortunately the wort may still be hot enough to oxidize when it picks up oxygen from the splashing. Pouring it down the side of the bucket to minimize splashing doesn't really help either since this increases the surface area of the wort exposed to the air. Thus it is important to cool the wort rapidly to below 80F to prevent oxidation, and then aerate it to provide the dissolved oxygen that the yeast need. Cooling rapidly between 90 and 140F is important because this temperature region is ideal for bacterial growth to establish itself in the wort. '

Perhaps it's not an issue but perhaps it is. Maybe depends how long it takes you to consume the beer but according to the above it's just as important as avoiding post-fermentation oxidation.

 

[yardy]

there's a bit of a step by step guide here, http://cruisenews.net/brewing/partial_mash/index.php

good luck

 

[goomboogo]

Adam, you mention mashing 500 grams of malted wheat at 70c. Are you planning to boil the resultant liquor (after removing the grain). It appears you are using a pre-bittered kit (Mac's Saaz Pale Ale) but the liquid used to soak the grain still needs to be boiled in order to kill off any bugs that may be present. I apologise if you already understand this but I just wanted to clarify.

 

[RdeVjun]

Yeah Boagsy, I appreciate there is plenty of literature which does support HSA and there's lots of reasons why it should be a problem however the authors seem to invariably err on the side of caution, yet they don't seem to have caught up with the fact that not just the odd brewer but perhaps hundreds or more have tried one process or another which should theoretically be problematic as far as HSA goes, but then found that it isn't actually a problem after all. I couldn't count the number the times I've seen, "Bah, humbug! HSA is indeed a myth!" and not just by my own hand, but its heaps.
If it helps, I recently made a Munich Helles which was poured hot, straight out of the kettle, through a sieve in a funnel into a cube for no- chilling, then I submitted the beer into QABC (Qld state competition) and it placed 3rd. That situation was probably quite conducive to HSA, but none of the score sheets noted HSA- type faults.
The other thing to consider is that some of the effects of HSA may not be evident until after some storage, seldom does home- made beer make it much beyond 3 months of age, let alone 6 or 12 months, which I suppose is the sort of shelf- life where HSA oxidation may become evident in commercial beer. That presumes the cardboard and sherry- like flavours aren't initally present and in my case that is the case.
Have to say, I've been kettle- chilling for some time now, but still do the occasional no- chill, there's not a great deal of difference between the two methods and each has its own pros and cons, but for me, HSA doesn't factor in the decision.

 

[felten]

Its more of an issue for commercial breweries who want to keep the same flavour profile through the whole life of their beer, which might spend months in a hot storage container on a ship, then months on a non refrigerated shelf somewhere before being consumed.

 

[manticle]

Hi all,

Just picked up some gear for my forst partial mash. Was given some advice when I bought the gear, but it contradicts (slightly) the advice I have read. If anyone can help, would be great to confirm I'm on the right track before I start...

The recipe is for a Stone and Wood Draught Ale Clone. I have the following:

-Mac's Saaze Pale Ale Can of goo,
-Brewcraft Australian Pale Ale Kit Converter
-500g (enzyme content) wheat malt grain

I was told that the cracked malt grain should be boiled at 70-degrees in 3L water for approx 45minutes to 1 hour, Strain and transfer to another 3L water @ 70 degrees. Add the 2 x 3L extract to the mix.

Does this sound correct? Also, I am planning on doing this on a gas stove, checking the temp every now and then using a candy thermometer.

I'd appreciate any advice. I was thinking it would be best to get an urn, but if I can do successfully on the stove, it would save me some cash.

Thanks in advance for any help guys/girls. Hope this works as I'd like to progress to an AG in the near future!

Adam.

Probably doesn't matter too much with 500g but the reason it's called a partial is because part of the fermentable sugar comes from base malt which needs to be mashed. 70 degree water will mash the grain but is pretty high for most mashing applications.

I'm just saying this for future reference - it might be worth your while reading about mash temp and what effect it can have.

As mentioned above you will need to boil the resultant liquor for at least 10 minutes to kill bugs - if adding hops you will need to boil for the requisite time depending on hop additions.

Generally sounds OK - more important that you understand the process and why you are doing what you are doing.

HSA is debated on a small scale but I always think try and reduce the risk where possible. Even if this means ladlng the hot liquor rather than pouring - it's only 3 L and will take a few extra minutes.

Best of luck.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

@op and boagsy - I'll answer both the questions from my experience.

I live in Brisbane and heat my strike temp (the temp at which I chuck grains in) at about 5 degrees above my mash temp (the temp I wish them to soak in). That takes into account the probable temp of my grains and how much it brings down.

Now for me, this makes a difference, because as an all grain brewer, the temperature I mash at affects my alcohol and my beers body (how it feels in the mouth - thick or thin or inbetween), as per the graph attached (replace time (hr) with temp (deg C) and look at the line with the boxes, not triangles):

The higher - the less edible sugar, more body, more mouthfeel, the lower - less alcohol, less body, thinner mouthfeel.

So for a 74 degree mash, I'll bring water to 78 degrees strike temp, and then the grains go in.

For you, as long as you are between 64 and 76 degrees temp, it isn't something for you to worry about. Sorry if too much info - more to ease your mind - so long as you are in the ballpark - you are fine.

Aeration isn't an issue pre yeast - again for an all grain brewer, after mashing, we will boil, which removes any possible bacteria anyway. However, it is unlikely that your 70-odd degree liquor will carry bacteria into your wort.

And as noted above, it's actually beneficial to aerate before yeast pitch - as they are like trees -eat oxygen, breathe out co2.

Finally, not an asked question - but I wish I'd had a big w pot when extract brewing - it would have been fantastic to mash, strain, then boil. But when I did extract plus grain, I just used a sieve, poured the grainy water through it, and then used hot water to sparge the grains remaining in the sieve.

Hoping this helps you and ask away, no question is inane.


Goomba