First Biab Ag Bottled Now, But Need Expert Advice...

[evil_as_skeletor]

Hi there guys,

I followed the beginner's BIAB walkthrough and decided to change up some of the specialty grains (without any knowledge of typical results).

The wort after boil (60 mins) was very, very sweet and even after hop additions, it really didnt 'bitter up' at all and the adjusted (for 15C) OG was 1056.
Now, as I bottle, the FG got all the way down to 1002! Now, using this formula - OG-FG/7.49 +.5 for bottling, makes it approx 7.7%, and boy does it taste it!

It was plastic tub fermenting at 14-15C using Lager yeast, Saflager 34/70.

Its a long way from where it was when I was taking SG readings during the 2weeks, where it had a great mouth taste and lingering flavour, to this overpowering alcohol flavour.
Not that I mind terribly, it still tastes great and I am sure, when its ready, it'll getcha drunk (in the words of Chappelle as Samuel Jackson), but I was left a tad disappointed.

Could someone please comment, or make expert criticism on the grains and ingredients I used, and whether I need to adjust anything next time round.
I would like to keep the flavour, but bring the alcohol down for next time, and perhaps make a larger batch.

The grains/ingredients I used were: (based loosely on Samuel Adams Boston Lager)

10L water at 63C for 60mins
2kg Malted Grain (2 Row) - Blended
200g Crystal Malt
100g Carapils
70g Carared
10g Tettnang in boil
5g Hallertau in boil
5g Hallertau dry hop for three subsequent days
1 Tablet whirfloc
1tsp Saflager 34/70

Bottled into 355mL bottles with one carb drop per bottle.

Thanks very much guys.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Since yeast is mostly (mostly because running 34/70 could be part of the issue, but I'd hazard a guess it runs deeper than just this) ruled out (I had Nottingham do this), my first question is - what was your mash temp and did you keep it fairly well insulated?

That sounds like a very low mash temp issue to me.

Goomba

 

[kocken42]

I think he states that he mashed at 63 'C for 60 minutes...so it may have dropped a degree or two during the mash.

 

[ianh]

If I put the recipe values in my spreadsheet, it indicates that the brew is way under hopped unless the Hop%AA's are much higher than 4.5%AA for the Tettnang and 8.1%AA for the Hallertau and that's assuming both hops are in the boil for 60 minutes.

I would be using about double the quantities of hops.

As there are no adjuncts I would be very surprised it fermented down to 1.002 even given the low mash temperature I would expect something around 1.012

 

[Bribie G]

Low mash temperature will do it to you every time. I recently did an Irish Red aiming for around 5.5% and - silly boy - did a 63 degree mash as I was looking at the style guide "dry finish". I didn't do any gravity readings, being a lazy sod, and on kegging it seemed to have a real sweetness. After a few pints I was just about crawling around* so I did a FG reading on a glass of it and it was waay down, something like 1003. Quick run through the calculator and the stuff had ended up over 7%, malt liquo' strength.
Hence the sweetness - it was the sweetness you get from alcohol, e.g. vodka or scotch.

* Bribie G's strong beer test: if after drinking four pints I start sobbing "why did Princess Diana have to die, and leave Britney alone you bastards" then it passes the test. No hydrometers here, nothing to see, move along now" B)

Edit: re Ian's post, yes it did have 300g cane sugar in it as well to thin the body a bit, so that would have helped. Jeez what was I thinking? :mellow:

 

[kocken42]

my spreadsheet

This is better than Richard Branson saying things like "Well I've never had a bad experience on my airline."

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I think he states that he mashed at 63 'C for 60 minutes...so it may have dropped a degree or two during the mash.

Sorry, I missed that.

Least the diagnostic skills are still okay though.

It'll be the low mash. Without knowing what his insulation technique is, it'd have lost at least another degree, and possibly more.

I never mash less than 65 anymore, and that's only with the Baird's Perle which still retains its maltiness better than most (like for example Wey PP Malt).

Goomba

 

[evil_as_skeletor]

Sorry, I missed that.

Least the diagnostic skills are still okay though.

It'll be the low mash. Without knowing what his insulation technique is, it'd have lost at least another degree, and possibly more.

I never mash less than 65 anymore, and that's only with the Baird's Perle which still retains its maltiness better than most (like for example Wey PP Malt).

Goomba

Cheers guys,
So if I start to mash somewhere closer to 70C, allowing for temp decrease, and double the hops quantities, I might be onto a better drop?

What is the theory behind the low mash temp yielding more sugars? I'm not 100% sure I understand that.

Also, I used the glass lid on the pot, and as instructed, used two towels to wrap around it to insulate as best I could.

Next time I will note the temp right after removing the towels.

 

[evil_as_skeletor]

If I put the recipe values in my spreadsheet, it indicates that the brew is way under hopped unless the Hop%AA's are much higher than 4.5%AA for the Tettnang and 8.1%AA for the Hallertau and that's assuming both hops are in the boil for 60 minutes.

I would be using about double the quantities of hops.

As there are no adjuncts I would be very surprised it fermented down to 1.002 even given the low mash temperature I would expect something around 1.012

Also, it definitely is sitting at 1002.
I made sure my hydro was calibrated correctly by sitting in water and its at 1000, when I put my beer in the tube and sat the hydro in, I was surprised it dropped so much.

Should I reduce the yeast amount next time too, in conjunction with the aforementioned fixes?

Any other tips would be greatly appreciated.

ps. I had a small glass of what was my 'spillage' from bottling, just to get an idea, and its not really that bad. Granted it is VERY strong, but it still has some residual flavour of a nice beer, if only I could refine it a bit more. I am happy with the backbone of taste at this stage.

Again, thanks very much for you guys' help.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

BIAB (in my experience anyway) does tend to make for a drier beer than does an equivalent mash temp in a traditional system - BUT - I am very surprised by 1.002 in a beer with nearly 16% crystal/cara in it. If you hadn't just said that you calibrated your hydro, that would have been where I thought the problem lay.

Your mash temp was too low and I would increase it significantly next time .. but to be honest I think this is some sort of aberration (or possible infection??) rather than something you should worry about in an ongoing kind of fashion. If it happens again, fair enough - but I don't think it will really.

 

[dogger]

A note on the theory to help (FG reading aside); there is an inverse relationship between your mash temp and dryness; the lower the mash temp - the drier the result (and the "thinner" the result) - at a lower temperature, the enzymes produce more readily fermentable sugars (more alcohol, less body); the higher the temp the enzymes produce longer chain sugars which are not so readily fermentable, retaining a residual sweetness (and more body).

So (like all things brewing) - variations are about the result you want.

Lower temp mashes are great for a summer session beer (dry, light bodied quaffer (so long as your calculate ingredients to match!)); higher temps for ales/winter brews.

From experience - If you mash (and maintain) a really high mash temp (70c is the top end), and intend to age in a bottle (for a year or two) - lower your carbonation levels; the longer chain sugars will still break down (deliciously) over the longer term, and alsop contribute additional carbonation. There's nothing worse than opening a beer aged for a couple of years that turns into a gusher!

 

[evil_as_skeletor]

Do you guys think I can do the boil hops at double the rate so 20gm Tettnang, 10gm Hallertau, then my late inclusion hops double also? What times would you recommend?

And just to be certain, the hallertau is a bittering hop and the tettnang a spicy aroma hop?

 

[evil_as_skeletor]

Sorry for bumping, but would really like some clarity.
Maybe someone could pick apart my recipe and tell me exactly where I am falling down.

Perhaps someone could tell me where to include my hops during boil, and when and how much to dry hop - keeping in mind I am using pellets.

Also, what do you guys use to adjust recipes for larger quantities?

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Hey mate

maybe try getting to know some brewing software?

I like beersmith 1.4 myself, but have also had a play with Brewmate (free) and find it very user friendly.
Or you could try Beersmith 2 for free trial.

Brewing software makes life a lot easier trying to work out what you like , where and when.

enjoy

 

[Nick JD]

Skeletor - there are two enzymes that you need to know. Not the ones in your laundry detergent, the ones that live in the kernel of the grains, the ones that are spiked into existance when Maltsters "malt" your barley (an evil process where they say to the barley, "Okay babies, time to GROW ... now you DIE! In the OVEN!" German accent).

These are the enzymes that convert the energy in the barley seed to a useable sugar to make it grow into a barley plant. All seeds use them. We trick the seed into producing the enzyme so we can use the seed.

Enzymes break things down into their simpler forms. Starch in grain flour is essentially a long chain of sugar. This chain can be snapped into really long lengths, or really short. Glucose (dextrose) is as short as it'll go. Life finds it easier to eat shorter chains.

One of the barley enzymes (the dry enzyme) turns the barley flour into a majority of sugars that yeast can easily eat (converted almost all into alcohol). The other (the sweet enzyme) turns barley flour into a bunch of sugars that yeast will either turn its nose up at, or reluctantly eat (converted into a bit of alcohol, but lots left as malty sweetness and body).

Low temps (like 62C) will favour the dry one. High temps (like 69C) will favour the sweet one.

Many brewers favour a enzymatic balance, around the 65-66C zone where both are present, and the best-of-both-worlds beer can be made ... some body, some alcohol, lotza flavour.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

What Beer4U said. Get brewmate, it'll do all the calcs on your bitterness (especially how much each addition adds to the total figure).

Rule of thumb (oversimplified, but it will help with construction) 60 mins bitterness; 45 mostly bitterness, slight flavour; 30 minutes a fairly 50/50 mix of the two, less than 30 but more than 5 tending towards flavour the lower you go (and reducing bitterness). Dry hop = aroma.

Look at the "balance" figure - it'll give you an idea as to whether the malt gives you the backbone to back up the bitterness.

Goomba

 

[evil_as_skeletor]

Cheers,
I grabbed Brewmate which seems pretty handy, but I am still confused with boiling hops and dry hopping amounts.
Also, should I chuck some in the mash, or is it best to put it in a bag and put them in at stages.

BTW, Nick JD, you are the man for putting together that beginner's guide, I really appreciate your efforts.

 

[evil_as_skeletor]

Sorry, just saw the post above, thanks for that.

SO tettnang, is it a bittering hop or aroma, also for the hallertau. Cant really see much concrete data on the two.

Also, Jim Koch of Samuel Adams/Boston Beer Co. says they dry hop and age on a bed of Hallertau Mittelfrueh, is that the hop I would have (purchased Hallertau pellets from brewcraft)?

 

[Nick JD]

All hops are flavour, aroma and bitterness hops.

Depends what you are trying to achieve.

The nobel hops (german/czech ones) are generally used for aroma of Euro beers ... but they are also used for bitterness and flavour of a lot of them too. They are low alpha acid hops (bitterness ability) so they are often replaced with high AA hops for the long boil part as it's cheaper. Many of the original beers from Western Europe used low AA hops from start to finish because that's all they had. Pride of Ringwood was the highest AA hop in the world when it was developed and the Australian brewing industry has still not let it go, much to our disgust. It tastes like an old mahogany wardrobe if used as an aroma hop.

But, it's very assumptive to pigeon-hole a hop. Brave task.

 

[evil_as_skeletor]

All hops are flavour, aroma and bitterness hops.

Depends what you are trying to achieve.

The nobel hops (german/czech ones) are generally used for aroma of Euro beers ... but they are also used for bitterness and flavour of a lot of them too. They are low alpha acid hops (bitterness ability) so they are often replaced with high AA hops for the long boil part as it's cheaper.

But, it's very assumptive to pigeon-hole a hop. Brave task.

Ok sweet, so they really don't have 'set' characteristics?

Thanks so much for all your help.