Fermenting In Oak

[T.D.]

I have always been baffled by wineries' lack of infections when fermenting in oak.

[post="121731"][/post]​

Only taking a wild guess... Would it be the more acidic nature of wine? :unsure:

Warren -

[post="121733"][/post]​

Yeah, could be. You'd have to think there is some significant difference, but at the end of the day they are both sugary liquids sitting at ambient temps - I would have thought they were fairly on a par when it comes to infection susceptibility. But I am also just guessing!

I'll tell you though, maybe us home brewers are worrying too much about infection... I mean, wine theifs and racking tube is not kept constantly sterilised in the winery and a few times the winemaker has gone to dip something like that in a barrel or tank to grab a sample and I've almost crash-tackled him to the ground!! haha :lol: But it has never caused any infections in the wine (I mean the equipment is never dirty or anything, just hasn't been soaked in iodophor for 20mins prior like I would probably do! ). Either wine is much more different to beer than I first thought, or my obsession with sanitation has gone a bit too far!

 

[Goat]

I would have thought that the alcohol levels would help too.

 

[T.D.]

I would have thought that the alcohol levels would help too.

[post="121736"][/post]​

Once the fermentation had occurred that's true. But what about the first stages - obviously the amount of sugar in unfermented wine is more than double what it is in unfermented beer...

 

[Jens-Kristian]

I don't think homebrewers are generally taking sanitation too seriously, but perhaps most of us take the risk of contamination too seriously?

What I mean, is that it makes sense for us to sanitise and sterilise our equipment in order to minimise the risk of contamination as none of us want to find that our next batch is fit only to go down the drain. However, it's my bet that anyone with a handful of brews behind them can testify to the fact that while brewing at least one of these bathces, they did something that either while it happened, or just after pitching the yeast made them think "Oh shit . . I messed that one up bigtime!" Three weeks later they had beer, and good beer at that.

Am I right?

I'm not saying to slack off on the sanitation/sterilisation, just that while we sometimes seem to think that if an ant farts in Paraguay while we're pitching our yeast the whole batch is ruined, it may be that . . . it isn't.

As for the wineries, I have to say I really don't know. My guess is that the casks are sterilised before the first time they're used, but after that the yeast takes care of the rest. I doubt many places have their large casks sitting around open after emptying, and the little bit of yeast that is retained in the cask after emptying keeps it well enough sanitised on its own? When the next batch is added, it is probably done with a potent enough starter that any little nasties that may have crept in get very little chance of taking over. At the time of emptying the cask again, the wine has enough alcohol in it that the cask is basically sanitised when emptied. I wouldn't be surprised if the acidic nature of the wine does a bit, too.

Remember, no matter how well you sterilise, by the time you add cool wort to your fermenter, it is impossible not to get *some* smalle amount of infection in with the wort. The point of a good starter is just to take care of that as soon as at all possible.

When I can afford a 30 litre oak cask I'll definitely be giving it a go.

(sorry for the rant)

Cheers,
Jens-Kristian

 

[T.D.]

What I mean, is that it makes sense for us to sanitise and sterilise our equipment in order to minimise the risk of contamination as none of us want to find that our next batch is fit only to go down the drain. However, it's my bet that anyone with a handful of brews behind them can testify to the fact that while brewing at least one of these bathces, they did something that either while it happened, or just after pitching the yeast made them think "Oh shit . . I messed that one up bigtime!" Three weeks later they had beer, and good beer at that.

Am I right?

I'm not saying to slack off on the sanitation/sterilisation, just that while we sometimes seem to think that if an ant farts in Paraguay while we're pitching our yeast the whole batch is ruined, it may be that . . . it isn't.

[post="121745"][/post]​

That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say, you just put it a bit better than I did... :blink:

Love the analogy too :lol:

 

[Jens-Kristian]

:beerbang:

Gotta watch out for those Paraguayan ants! :blink:


J-K

 

[GMK]

the winneries also use sulpher sticks - like u get a sulpher stick - put a match to it and drop it in the barrel and seal it - the sulpher gas kills all nasties and keeps the barrel sterilised for a long while until the next batch is ready to go into it.

I can get 30 ltr Barrels for 225.00 - made from French Oak ex Sherry/port .

 

[Vangleator]

I gave oak chips a go in some malt extract brews. One example was 50g American oak chips, 30g raw & 20g roasted (220C for 15 minutes, electric oven) in boil for last 15 minutes. A 'wee heavy' i was experimenting with. Got second & bronze at SABSOSA in 2000. Judged at 5 mths old. Lasted 1 year, still slightly oaky then. Other was IPA with same oak regime. Judged at different show, different judge who said 'too much oak". Different palates, but I quite liked the flavours changing over time. Checking other records, did a light wheat beer with 20g roasted oak chips. My obs 'Thin, but full flavoured' at 4 months. Seemed to work well in Imp stout, 1st in specialty beers, Clare 2001 at over 1yo. Judges comment "lots of flavour, high alc, nice for a winter's day" (50g roasted 15min @ 220C, final 15min boil) .
Give oak a go, it's quite different. Start with oak chips to see if you like it, cheaper than a barrel.
Tried GMK's range of oaky's and the more alc the better, the barley wine's divine. Trying some at his 40th this Sat nite. :chug: :chug: :chug:

 

[mudsta]

GMK is right about the sulphur sticks.

Ive been a beer brewer for 9yrs (ag for 3 now). Ova the past 7yrs ive dappled in spirits and wine.

Ive been doing alot more wine in the last two years. This year i was taken on at an un-named fledgling winery as head wine maker. Have made 800L of 3 reds and 3 whites last month.

I dont claim to be a winemaker as it makes a mockery of all that beer stands for. BUT i have been madly researching winemaking...

There are a few reasons the rough practices of wine making and oak aging dont spoil the wine.

1. The wine is maintained at 30-50ppm of Potassium Metabisulphate all through crushing, fermentation and bottling, thus providing bacteria killing power (but not enough to kill wine yeasts)

2. Some specific yeast strains used in winemaking are 'killer strains'. This meaning they have tendancys to kill any forein bacteria or yeasts. :huh:

3. The high acidity 3.0-3.4PH helps to discourage bacteria growth.

4. Wood is slightly good at killing bacteria, hence its use in kitchen cutting boards etc (Yes it can also harbour bacteria too)

5, The high alcohol content of wine. Great at killing yeast, bacteria and our brain cells. :super:

I have also been looking at using oak to age beers.

Cheers,

Mudsta :beerbang:

 

[user 384]

I think most people have missed the point with wineries and oak barrels. They don't actually ferment in them the way home brewers ferment in a glass or plastic fermenter.

The primary fermentation is conducted much like we do, usually in stainless steel and using yeast to convert glucose and fructose into alcohol and flavour by-products.

Secondary fermentation, is a process by which a wine's malic acid is changed into lactic acid. This process is performed using three strains of bacteria named malolactic bacteria. Malolactic fermentation is used to reduce a wine's acidity and to alter its flavor. Virtually all red wines undergo a secondary fermentation. As well as making the wine more stable, the process makes the flavor softer, fuller and more complex. Again this is usually done in stainless steel. The most common way is to add a cultured strain of malolactic bacteria.

The wine is only aged in oak. By this stage it has a fairly high alcohol content (much higher than beer) that will significantly inhibit bacterial growth.

So no wineries don't worry excessively about what can grow in their oak barrels becuase they don't put raw or partially fermented must in them. Nor do they worry about bacteria, because they have already purposely inoculated their wines with bacteria to stabilise it. Only when the sugars have been converted and the wine stabilised do they then expose it to the environment of an oak barrel.

Cheers
MAH

 

[T.D.]

I think most people have missed the point with wineries and oak barrels. They don't actually ferment in them the way home brewers ferment in a glass or plastic fermenter.

The primary fermentation is conducted much like we do, usually in stainless steel and using yeast to convert glucose and fructose into alcohol and flavour by-products.

Secondary fermentation, is a process by which a wine's malic acid is changed into lactic acid. This process is performed using three strains of bacteria named malolactic bacteria. Malolactic fermentation is used to reduce a wine's acidity and to alter its flavor. Virtually all red wines undergo a secondary fermentation. As well as making the wine more stable, the process makes the flavor softer, fuller and more complex. Again this is usually done in stainless steel. The most common way is to add a cultured strain of malolactic bacteria.

The wine is only aged in oak. By this stage it has a fairly high alcohol content (much higher than beer) that will significantly inhibit bacterial growth.

So no wineries don't worry excessively about what can grow in their oak barrels becuase they don't put raw or partially fermented must in them. Nor do they worry about bacteria, because they have already purposely inoculated their wines with bacteria to stabilise it. Only when the sugars have been converted and the wine stabilised do they then expose it to the environment of an oak barrel.

Cheers
MAH

[post="124050"][/post]​

I beg to differ, wineries do use oak barrels for primary fermentation. This was essentially the point of my initial post - I have seen wineries ferment in oak on countless occasions with great success and wondered if the same could be done for beer. The oak flavours are extremely intense if fermented in barrel, but have a tendency to dissipate faster than if the wine is "matured" in oak.

I realise the majority of wine is matured in oak in a similar way brewers use a secondary fermenter, but it is certainly not the only stage of the winemaking process where they are used.

 

[kirem]

As a qualified winemaker I can help put to rest some of this misinformation. I also claim to be a winemaker and it doesn't make a mockery of anything. Not sure what a head winemaker does, make wine from heads :unsure:

Wine is fermented in oak and gives a distinct barrel ferment character. Some of the greatest chardonnays in the world are barrel ferment. Indeed some of the up and coming Australian Shiraz use barrel ferment shiraz as a blend component. They can be yeasted in a tank and once the ferment is away, transfered to barrel or yeasted in barrel. It is not easy to move a ferment, lots of foam!

Wine is also aged in the barrel, this uses a barrels ability to pass low levels of air into the wine, amongst others, polymerising tannins. The level is low enough to prevent undesirable oxidation of flavour and aromas. Used barrels have less of a ability to do this.

Bacteria and yeast can and does grow at all stages of winemaking. High alcohol, low pH, sulphur, lysozyme and temperature and other techniques can inhibit most bacteria and yeast atleast until there is nothing for them to metabolise.

The use of sulphur in red ferment or initial aging is not a good idea, it bleaches anthocyanins and bonds with aldehyde making it unable to bond with tannins.

Acetic acid bacteria and Dekkera/Brettanomyces will love a poorly looked after barrel.

 

[kook]

There are a fair few English breweries who still do Cask Ales that are conditioned on oak for a fair while. My local pub (well, it was my local until a couple of months ago) has two of them imported every week, meaning I have a shot at trying two new oak conditioned ales per week.

Any examples? I'd say a "fair few" is a pretty big exaggeration. I only know of a few breweries that have their beer touch any wood:

http://www.spbw.com/wood.html

Plus, I'm unsure about Jennings to be honest. It's owned by W&D so it's probably a duplicate on SPBW's behalf.

Virtually none serve from the wood anymore either. Isle of Skye and Wadworth are the only two i know of. Isle of Skye only distribute in the wood to a couple pubs in Northern Scotland (i've visited 2 of them). Wadworth claim they distribute to many pubs in the wood, but I think they're full of it. I've always seem 6X served from SS.

The only bottled oaked UK beers I know of are:

Theakston Old Peculiar
Gales Prize Old Ale (unconfirmed)
Fullers Golden Prize (unconfirmed)
Marstons Pedigree
Sam Smiths Old Brewery Bitter
Traquair House (All fermented in wood, very unique & tasty beers)
Innis & Gun - Pasturised oak aged barley wine


PS - I'm not sure if you're headed to Kbenhavnske ldage but if you are, enjoy it! Unfortunately I can't make it Theres some awesome new beers available in Denmark at the moment though. Drop in to the lbutikken stand and try some Mikkeller beers. Very small brewery producing some awesome US-style beers. Also, lfabrikken have a few really top quality beers, expecially the porter!

 

[STEVENALI]

:super: Hi Guys as a kid in the late forties I can remember the beer getting delivered to the pubs in the big old oak barrels,I remember the fuss of carefully
rolling the barrels down into the cellar being carefull not to knock them lest the ale goe's sour,they had to be stacked and left for a while untill it settled quite often
when they were tapped the beer was a bit off and was sold a bit cheaper or mixed with other beer to the offset the taste.there was nothing romantic or perfect in the quality of the beer and it was more a case of pot luck if it came out right.
It's always interesting to think that beer was better in the good old days but basically it is simply not true,you had to be there,Stainless steel has done wonders
for beer we are very lucky to have it,most of you Guys would know how hard it is to clean up with all the magic brewing gear we have now, imagine cold damp
wood and all the yeastie beasties in it.We live in an age where brewing can be controlled just be thankfull for that.
I know some of you like to experiment and good luck because thats what timber and yeast is LUCK.

 

[JasonY]

So is anyone doing oaked beers on a semi-regular basis these days? Interested to hear what styles people are getting good results with and how long you leave in the barrel for.

Thinking of it as a potential project for next year if time permits? No firm plans but probably try and aquire a 20 - 30L barrel for experimentation.