Fermenting In Oak

[T.D.]

I have a family background in the wine industry and often see things that make me think "hmm, I wonder if you could do that in brewing too..."

We ferment quite a bit of our wine in oak, as opposed to s/s fermenters. I tried a chardonnay last weekend that had been fermented in oak and had been in barrel for just 3 weeks and the flavours were EXTREMELY noticable. Bare in mind this was brand new oak which is very resiny, and these flavours will fall away much faster than if the wine was matured in oak for around 6 months. But, as usual, I digress... older barrels are much more subtle and I am just wondering if anybody here has tried or knows of anybody else who has tried fermenting beer in oak? Obviously some styles would be better suited than others. Perhaps a porter or something else dark would be best.

Any thoughts / opinions / interesting stories on the topic???

 

[Ol'Wobbly]

The mind boggles <_< . Beer in oak?

I was given a port barrel (American oak) last year and, as you say, the resin flavour is extremely noticeable. But it would be fascinating to find out what a dark beer or stout would taste like. Still, to buy a 30 litre oak barrel just for beer plus the cost of a brew may turn out to be an expensive experiment if it fails, considering that the barrel would no doubt be tainted by the beer.

 

[Ross]

TD,

There are still many beers brewed or aged in oak around the world, while doing a "google on the subject I came across this restaurant in the UK that has a fabulous beer list including this beer aged in Oak

"RODENBACH probably no other brewery specialises so much in such an unusual product. A national treasure! The definitive example of Flanders red beer. Aged for two years in huge brandy casks there are 300 of these vessels - all uncoated oak - each containing up to 60,000 litres. This is unique in the world and helps give the sour, tart red colour and very unusual colour."

Oh, to have somewhere like this in Aus - we can but dream....

Cheers Ross

 

[Duff]

GMK was selling oak barrels last year for aging beers, I think he posted a pic of one. Do a search and you'll find the thread and the beers he, and others, were going to do. Not sure whether they have been done though.

Cheers.

 

[Gough]

Oh, to have somewhere like this in Aus - we can but dream....

Cheers Ross

[post="121543"][/post]​

See, now this is where you're just not thinking big enough Ross! Surely you could invest some of the Craftbrewer millions into a chain of "Rossco's Family Restaurants" :lol: A free glass of Rodenbach and 2 bags of hops to every paying customer! And if any of the kiddies get out of hand you could have the foil vacuum sealer at the ready to slow them down a bit. Time to start a franchise for sure mate :lol:

But I digress...

Isn't GMK the resident Oak Cask Ale brewing expert on AHB?

Shawn.

 

[warrenlw63]

I'm there for the Rodenbach. :wub:

Warren -

 

[T.D.]

I'm there for the Rodenbach. :wub:

Warren -

[post="121554"][/post]​

Cripes, sounds like there's quite a market!! I better get cracking...

 

[GMK]

Unless i am mistaken - Pilsner Urquel is fermented in open oak barrels and then transfered into pitch lined 300ltr barrels for aging.

I use the Oak for secondary..

So far in oak i have done:
Lees Harvest Barley Oak for 3months
IPA oak for 4 weeks
Imperial APA - highly hopped in Oak for 4 weeks
Forbidden fruit in oak for 8 weeks
Trios Pistoles in Oak for 8 weeks
London Brown Porter in Oak for 6 weeks.

Definately adds a complexity/depth to the flavour.
Also, a bit of sharpness/tartness - could be from the bit of oxidation or the wood/bacteria that is in there.

I sterlise with boiling water in between batches.
Next up is teh FES going into the Barrel...

I have some of these Oaked Beers on tap - so if anyone treks upto the BrewInn - they are welcome to sample.

 

[Ross]

I sterlise with boiling water in between batches.

[post="121568"][/post]​

Is that enough to sterilise Kenny?? :blink:

Might be ok for your lambics, but I wouldn't be putting much else in there...

cheers Ross

 

[warrenlw63]

Unless i am mistaken - Pilsner Urquel is fermented in open oak barrels and then transfered into pitch lined 300ltr barrels for aging.

[post="121568"][/post]​

No GMK. Not any more. Mainly all cutting edge S/S now.

The archaic wooden stuff got gradually phased out when the Iron Curtain dropped. Shame might have something to do with the decline in flavour.

Warren -

 

[Doc]

Speights in Dunedin have open Kauri fermenters (gyles) that they ferment in also.

Personally I'd love to get a small Bourbon and a small Port barrel for fermenting and aging some nice dark ales in. mmmmmmm

Doc

 

[Bobby]

i was talking to one of the brewers at james squire, and if memory serves me right he brewed up a porter or something similar and conditioned it in oak for a while. he then sent a bottle of the brew to the guys at james squire and ended up getting a job there. or something like - that i was a bit under the influence when i was talking to him.

 

[Weizguy]

Unless i am mistaken - Pilsner Urquel is fermented in open oak barrels and then transfered into pitch lined 300ltr barrels for aging.

[post="121568"][/post]​

No GMK. Not any more. Mainly all cutting edge S/S now.

The archaic wooden stuff got gradually phased out when the Iron Curtain dropped. Shame might have something to do with the decline in flavour.

Warren -

[post="121572"][/post]​

Warren,

I heard that the Germans were influential in the changeover to s/s.

They convinced the Czechs that the EU would not buy beer from them if it didn't comply with EU rules. So they sold the Czechs the s/s vessels.
IIRC, there are no such rules for selling beer in the EU.

Archaic, or artisanal wooden stuff?
So now the beer is eeeeeuuw-compliant?

Seth

 

[warrenlw63]

Well they bought out koda too.

Maybe the car stands a chance of moving into the 21st century now. :lol:

Gotta love those skinny little gear shifters.

Warren -

 

[Malnourished]

(Storage issues notwithstanding) I'm very keen to try aging some Belgians in used wine barrels. A tripel aged in a chardonnay barrel or a big, dark strong ale in a pinot barrel sounds awesome to me. I can't think of a single barrel-aged beer I've had that I haven't liked, though in fairness I haven't had any of the more oddball Yank oak beers.

Unfortunately most wine barrels are ~220L (I think) so it's not going to happen for me for a while.

I'm gonna be down checking out some wineries on the weekend so I might see if I can find anywhere that uses smaller barrels.

 

[kook]

"RODENBACH probably no other brewery specialises so much in such an unusual product. A national treasure! The definitive example of Flanders red beer. Aged for two years in huge brandy casks there are 300 of these vessels - all uncoated oak - each containing up to 60,000 litres. This is unique in the world and helps give the sour, tart red colour and very unusual colour."

Oh, to have somewhere like this in Aus - we can but dream....

Cheers Ross

[post="121543"][/post]​

Rodenbach and Rodenbach Grand Cru are available in Aus. I used to use it for cooking my flemish beef stew

And GMK, as others have mentioned, Pilsener Urquell haven't used oak in a few years now. And even when they did, they were pitch lined so there was no oak flavour imparted.

 

[STEVENALI]

Hi I have an old barrel but it's gone to the dog.Sorry

 

[Jens-Kristian]

Hey,

There are a fair few English breweries who still do Cask Ales that are conditioned on oak for a fair while. My local pub (well, it was my local until a couple of months ago) has two of them imported every week, meaning I have a shot at trying two new oak conditioned ales per week.

What I've heard though, is that it is important not to go for American oak casks, as tannins and other things are released much easier from them. That's not from personal experience, but just what I've heard.

What you're looking for is French oak or Iberian oak (Actually, I'm assuming they are about the same thing, but with different names).

The home brew shop I go to, sells 10 litre oak casks for about au$120 and 30 litre ones for about au$170 or so. That won't help people much here though, as this is in Denmark. They do mail order however, so depending on what prices you've seen them for elsewhere . . .

Some people use the alternative of boiling oak chips. I'm sorry if I'm just stating the obvious here, but I don't know how much it's done in Australia, and since it hasn't been mentioned in this thread already . . .

I haven't tried the oak chips yet, but my home brew shop has the chips and I'm planning on trying it for my next brew in about a week's time.

How about soaking oak chips in wine, bourbon or malt whiskey for a few months and then using them for your beer?

Cheers,

Jens-Kristian

 

[T.D.]

Certainly in winemaking, the American oak has a much more aggressive resiny flavour than the French stuff. It all gets pretty complicated from there with numerous different options on the tightness of the grain, toasted heads, toasted staves etc etc. Buying the same specs from two different coopers also yields big differences in flavours as they all seem to impart their own signature styles on the barrels.

I don't want to hault discussions here on oak maturation etc as I am interested in this too, but what I am proposing is primary fermentation in a 1-2 year old oak barrel. Not that I am seriously considering actually doing it, I'm just curious as to whether this could be successful.

I have always been baffled by wineries' lack of infections when fermenting in oak. Its the nooks and crannies that exist in the woods grain etc that gets me - it flies in the face of everything I was told way back when I started brewing - ie don't scratch your fermenter as dodgies can be harboured in that scratch and infect a subsequent beer. So surely wood's grain is like having zillions of little scratches where stuff can sit and wait for nice fresh wort (or grape juice) to infect??? Especially since you only have a 2" hole through which to do all of your cleaning and sterilising. It seems to work in the wine industry though (proof's in the pudding), I'm just curious to know if primary fermentation in oak would work with beer too.

 

[warrenlw63]

I have always been baffled by wineries' lack of infections when fermenting in oak.

[post="121731"][/post]​

Only taking a wild guess... Would it be the more acidic nature of wine? :unsure:

Warren -