Fermenter Design

[Brauhaus007]

Hi all I am looking for some verification on some fermenter design guides. I have been told that the height to diameter ratio of a fermenter is important to the performance of the vessel. the ratio is 4/1 and that the slope of the cne should be 33deg to the side wall .... any body agree or disagree???? :excl:

 

[Adamt]

It really depends on the overall size of your fermenter, which is?

33 degrees to the side wall would be an odd shape... you mean 78?

Noonan (Brewing Science and Practice) says H/D of 3-4 and an angle of 70 degrees is common for CCVs.

 

[Brauhaus007]

It really depends on the overall size of your fermenter, which is?

33 degrees to the side wall would be an odd shape... you mean 78?

Noonan (Brewing Science and Practice) says H/D of 3-4 and an angle of 70 degrees is common for CCVs.

Looking at 200lts for the fermenter... Am interested in this Noonan (Brewing Science and Practice) where do I find this info will try a google search??

 

[Adamt]

Oops, I said Noonan was the author... I meant Briggs. You can get the book online at somewhere like amazon.com... it's not cheap!

Keeping your fermenter guidelines around those values will be adequate. Noticeable deviations in fermenter performance are not expected with a vessel that small (comparing with commercial vessels).

Also just to clarify, the cone angle is the angle between the two sides of the cone (visualising it flat).

 

[Brauhaus007]

Oops, I said Noonan was the author... I meant Briggs. You can get the book online at somewhere like amazon.com... it's not cheap!

Keeping your fermenter guidelines around those values will be adequate. Noticeable deviations in fermenter performance are not expected with a vessel that small (comparing with commercial vessels).

Also just to clarify, the cone angle is the angle between the two sides of the cone (visualising it flat).

Thanks for the information.. I have found the book you refer to .. your right about it not being cheep but it looks like it is verry comprehensive. The tricky part is convincing the good wife that the expense is worth it

 

[raven19]

Thanks for the information.. I have found the book you refer to .. your right about it not being cheep but it looks like it is verry comprehensive. The tricky part is convincing the good wife that the expense is worth it

The minister of finances is often the stumbling block in brewery additions!

 

[crozdog]

Looking at 200lts for the fermenter... Am interested in this Noonan (Brewing Science and Practice) where do I find this info will try a google search??

it's available as a PDF download............. if you checkout ebook & torrent sites eg http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&...rrent&meta=

What are you looking to make these vessels out of?

 

[crozdog]

you might be interested in this
http://cgi.ebay.com/55-Gallon-Drum-Cone-co...id=p3286.c0.m14

 

[Brauhaus007]

I will be using stainless steel .. living in the barossa there are a number of engineering firms to choose from... Unfortunately they are all geared to the wine industry thats why I am hoping to take a plan to them for what I require.. Then hope I can stand the price they will be charging, the other option is Wayne at beerbelly who knocks out some good stuff for small scale brewers..As with most things cost will play a part

 

[Jamz]

Out of curiosity I was just looking up patent applications for conical fermenters and they make for some interesting reading. They don't give dimensions, so I don't know if there's any info in them that you haven't come across from other sources, but it does say why they've designed certain features the way they have.

Check out this for example: Conical fermenter

 

[Weizguy]

Adamt, if you tell me which chapter the relevant bit is in, I could prob excerpt it & post here, as I already have the pdf file.

 

[Frank]

I will be using stainless steel .. living in the barossa there are a number of engineering firms to choose from... Unfortunately they are all geared to the wine industry thats why I am hoping to take a plan to them for what I require.. Then hope I can stand the price they will be charging, the other option is Wayne at beerbelly who knocks out some good stuff for small scale brewers..As with most things cost will play a part

If you are in the Barossa, try Metaland, on the Greenock Rd out of Nuriootpa. Daryl Trinne is the owner, also the owner of Barossa Brewing, so you could drop in for a taster and ask the question. He makes anything SS for the wine industry, he is always busy, but could probably point you in the right direction to someone on a smaller scale.

 

[Frank]

Adamt, if you tell me which chapter the relevant bit is in, I could prob excerpt it & post here, as I already have the pdf file.

Chapter 14 - Fermentation Technologies.

 

[Weizguy]

If you any need (Edit: word added) more let me know, but you probably will benefit from downloading the full file from the site referenced by Croz above.

14.3 Bottom fermentation systems
Most beer in the world is brewed with strains of the lager yeast Saccharomyces
carlsbergensis (see Chapter 11 for discussion on classification), which tends to separate to
the bottom of a fermenting vessel after fermentation. Fermenters for lager fermentation are
thus the most common and important in brewing and must allow for this property of the
yeast.
14.3.1 Choice, size and shape of vessels
One of the most significant advances in fermenter design was the move to closed
fermenters following the work of Leopold Nathan who in 1908 and in 1927 patented
designs of enclosed vertical cylindrical vessels with conical bases. Nathan claimed faster
fermentation rates and the collection of carbon dioxide as well as fermentation control by
temperature and the use of the vessels for fermentation and maturation (Nathan, 1930).
Nathan's ideas took some time to be accepted but the cylindroconical vessel was in wide
use by the 1960s.
Before Nathan vessels were fully accepted some cylindrical tanks were built with
gently sloping bases but these tanks were seldom fully successful for yeast removal. A
further development in the USA in 1968 was the Rainier Unitank (Knudsen and Vacano,
1972), which had a conical base with a slope of 25 from the horizontal. This vessel was
used for fermentation and maturation. These tanks were equipped for cooling at the
maximum output of fermentation and for cooling to maturation temperatures of 0C.
Modern forms of the Nathan vessel are now the most widely used fermenters. These
vessels (Fig. 14.2) can range in size from 100 to 6,000 hl (60 to 3,600 imp. brl). An
important characteristic of these vessels is the steep angled cone at the base. An angle of
70 is required to allow the yeast to settle into the base of the vessel at the completion of
primary fermentation. This allows most of the yeast to be separated, leaving the beer
comparatively free of yeast. This has allowed, in some systems, maturation and
conditioning to take place in the same vessel as fermentation without the need to
centrifuge the beer during transfer to a second vessel for maturation (Chapter 15).
A number of advantages have been claimed for cylindroconical vessels compared to
open square or round fermenters (Hoggan, 1977):
lower capital costs of 2535%
lower operating costs of 5065%
decreased beer losses
increased vessel utilization
reduced losses of bitter substances
lower space requirement
potential for the collection of carbon dioxide.

These vessels are usually 34 times taller than their diameter and work at pressures of
11.5 bar above atmospheric. Tank diameters in the UK are usually 3.5 to 4.5m (11.5
to 15 ft.). Heterogeneous fermentations have been observed in tanks much greater than
20m (66 ft.) high and for this reason in recent developments the height of vessels has
been kept to less than 15m (49 ft.). This phenomenon has not been fully explained but
special circumstances do apply to very large vessels (>2,500 hl 1,500 imp. brl) in
relation to temperature gradients and cooling (Section 14.3.3). In classic European
lager production more squat vessels are used where the ratio of diameter to height is
<2:1. This gives a fermentation profile that equates more completely to that achieved
in horizontal tanks. In tall vessels when the ratio is >3:1, there is a tendency for
increased production of higher alcohols at the expense of esters.

Copyright 2004 Woodhead Publishing Limited and CRC Press, LLC

 

[MHB]

CCVs really suit Lager brewing and large scale commercial operations, when you want to know about Lager reach for Kunze.

Most of the tanks I have seen have 60 degree cones (1/2 circle), the transition from the cone to the streak (vertical sides) is critical. It really should be knuckle rolled, generally at not less than 50mm radius.

Tanks of any size are usually electro polished internally so the yeast does slide down the cone, remember that yeast slurry is a non-Newtonian fluid, if you want to model how yeast slurry behaves, fill a funnel with custard and watch how it fall out.

If the tank isnt going to be put in a fridge or cold room it is important to have differential cooling between the cone and the streak.

The attachments are a couple of pages from Kunze

Personally I think that unless you are brewing large volumes (over say 500 L) or are exclusively brewing Lager, or just really really love bling, I wouldnt bother, for Ale brewing stainless steel 50 L full enclosed tanks with rounded tops and bottoms work a treat, provided you rack occasionally.

MHB

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