Feelers out for polyclar

[wide eyed and legless]

Anyone give me some feed back who has used polyclar fining agent, interested to know your thoughts.

 

[MHB]

Have and do use PVPP in many forms, these days I mostly stick to BrewBright in the kettle BB is a blend of PVPP and Kappa Carrageenan, so it does the job of reducing haze forming high MW Protein and the accelerated settling that Irish moss derivatives bring to the end of the boil.

Used post fermentation is I find most effective if combined with filtration, even more effective when mixed with Silica Xerogel (70/30).
By filtration I mean paper plate filtration, a fair bit of it will go strait through those pleated "Absolute" filters some home brewers are so fond of.
Mark

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Thanks for that feedback Mark, I have read it is very good, so good in fact if too much is used it can strip flavour from the beer no more than 5 gram / 20 litres is that about what you use?

 

[MHB]

I doubt any reasonable addition (smaller than that required to act like a sponge, think grams/L) would have much affect on flavour.
PVPP is a type of Nylon and is very selective in removing Polyphenols with quite large molecular weights, these aren't really all that beneficial in beer as they don't contribute (much) to either flavour, mouthfeel or head formation, but do contribute to haze and can be quite unpleasant tasting in high doses.
Sorry if my first post was a bit badly put: -
PVPP removes Polyphenols (tannins)
Carrageenan binds high MW Protein flock and helps it settle in the kettle
Silica Xerogel binds high MW Protein still in solution, post ferment giving even more protection from haze formation and other aging/staling reactions.
PVPP can be used in the kettle or post ferment (different grades)

Recommended dosage for BrewBright is around 10-20g (15g)/100L so for 20L about 3g - I have experimented with way higher doses and really haven't noticed much change either way. Mind you using more would only be of interest to someone trying to make crystal clear nearly flavourless mega swill - not really on my brewing schedule.
Mark

 

[Andy_27]

I got some of the 70/30 blend and used it once in the fermenter post ferment. It's really difficult to mix into solution, I used a stir plate and agitated it for an hour or so but by the time I went to tip it in, alot of the product was up the sides of the flask and didnt pour in. It's also difficult to pour into the fermenter and have it mix evenly without splashing about too much with a spoon or something.

All that said, I only used it once and didnt see much benefit but perhaps my process was flawed. I get excellent results with Biofine Clear in the keg though. Better than gelatine from my experience. In the kettle, I prefer Whirlfloc over Irish moss. I know its basically the same thing, but I just seem to get better floccing with Whirlfloc.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have read that one has to be careful how it is mixed, and to just make a slurry and pour into the wort.

 

[MHB]

On BrewBright, I find I get the best results if it's made into a slurry with 100-200mL (for a 20-25L batch) or so of cold water, allowed to hydrate for 10 minutes (again give or take), re-stirred and added to the whirlpool once that's established (after you have you have finished stirring).
Forms really big chunky flock (looks like a handful of croutons has been tossed in), the big flock chunks don't get smashed up as you have finished stirring and they settle faster (see Stokes law).

I got some of the 70/30 blend and used it once in the fermenter post ferment. It's really difficult to mix into solution, I used a stir plate and agitated it for an hour or so but by the time I went to tip it in, alot of the product was up the sides of the flask and didnt pour in. It's also difficult to pour into the fermenter and have it mix evenly without splashing about too much with a spoon or something.

All that said, I only used it once and didnt see much benefit but perhaps my process was flawed. I get excellent results with Biofine Clear in the keg though. Better than gelatine from my experience. In the kettle, I prefer Whirlfloc over Irish moss. I know its basically the same thing, but I just seem to get better floccing with Whirlfloc.

Biofine Clear is a silica xerogel. 70/30 is a blend of PVPP and Xerogel, it can be a bit of a PITA, I found putting it in a bottle with cool sterile water (Pura) just a bit bigger than the mix you are making (say 200mL in a 250mL bottle), shake the hell out of a couple of times, over a couple of hours, then distribute evenly over the top of the fermenter and let it fall through the beer, gives good results.
Best time to add is at the coldest point in the fermentation cycle (end of cold crash or lagering) and just before filtering.
It can give really amazing results, I have got a turbidity meter and get numbers close to Zero Haze when using BrewBright, 70/30 and very tight filtration.
Hardly necessary in most beers but its nice to have the option.
Mark

 

[shacked]

On BrewBright, I find I get the best results if it's made into a slurry with 100-200mL (for a 20-25L batch) or so of cold water, allowed to hydrate for 10 minutes (again give or take), re-stirred and added to the whirlpool once that's established (after you have you have finished stirring).
Forms really big chunky flock (looks like a handful of croutons has been tossed in), the big flock chunks don't get smashed up as you have finished stirring and they settle faster (see Stokes law).


Biofine Clear is a silica xerogel. 70/30 is a blend of PVPP and Xerogel, it can be a bit of a PITA, I found putting it in a bottle with cool sterile water (Pura) just a bit bigger than the mix you are making (say 200mL in a 250mL bottle), shake the hell out of a couple of times, over a couple of hours, then distribute evenly over the top of the fermenter and let it fall through the beer, gives good results.
Best time to add is at the coldest point in the fermentation cycle (end of cold crash or lagering) and just before filtering.
It can give really amazing results, I have got a turbidity meter and get numbers close to Zero Haze when using BrewBright, 70/30 and very tight filtration.
Hardly necessary in most beers but its nice to have the option.
Mark

Hey Mark,

Thanks for this detail! Would you still add biofine if you were not going to filter? If so, how long would you leave before transferring the beer into its final package (a keg say)?

 

[MHB]

Depends what you mean by Biofine.
For years Biofine has been a trade name for Isinglass - a very different family of product (still very effective tho).
Biofine Clear (or something like that) is being used to describe a Silica Xerogel fining.
70/30 already contains Xerogel along with PVPP, so you wouldn't need to add more, if not the Silica available appears to be a very effective fining. I would consider using it if I was looking for commercial clarity.
Worth remembering that the PVPP part chemically binds Polyphenols, one half of the chill haze equation, Silica Xerogel removes the key Proteins, the other half of chill haze. The form of Silica in 70/30 is optimised for this.
Not sure the same can be said of Biofine Clear, I don't know how selective it, but suspect it just drops any flock/haze in the beer.

Not much point if you are brewing dark beer, hop monsters or Heffe...
Haven't used the Biofine Clear that I suspect you are asking about, but try it and see if it gets you what you are looking for.
Mark

 

[Coodgee]

biofine clear is very good simply because it's easy. 10-20ml squirt into the keg tends to solve most haze/clarity issues. If it doesn't come perfectly clear after a couple of days another 10ml usually does the trick.

 

[awfulknauful]

I have tried a few fining agents and for me the go to is polyclar.

 

[MHB]

biofine clear is very good simply because it's easy. 10-20ml squirt into the keg tends to solve most haze/clarity issues. If it doesn't come perfectly clear after a couple of days another 10ml usually does the trick.

Yah - but that wasn't the question asked.
Biofine Clear is apparently a fining, which means it acts on haze (particles in suspension) where is PVPP acts on the chemicals that may form haze later - think prophylactic.
Not really intended for the same purpose, in fact I would rather call PVPP a process aid than a fining, going to depend on the definition of "Fining" that you use - generally its something along the lines of "accelerates the precipitation of particulates..." it speeds up a process that would happen naturally if you waited long enough.

Personally, these days I don't use much other than BrewBright in the kettle and patience later in the process.
Mark

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Going to get some tomorrow and will give it a go, though I must say that I don't really use anything at all apart from the Irish moss, and even though I have forgotten at times, as my last English bitter it still clears up very nice in the secondary in the fridge.