European Larger Advice Requested

[MattC8]

Thank you all for the responses to my question. Especially Rendo and Jimboley with your very detailed posts and instructions. I am very appreciative. I am new to the brewing caper and need all the advice I can get. So far the brews I've made a drinkable, but nothing special. I should point out though that so far I've only followed the instructions on the can. No extra additions. This really is a great forum for the inexperienced like me. Thank you all.

To keep you updated, I put down the first batch yesterday as per the Coopers instructions on the can. I'm using my Garage as the location, it has an average temp of 16C so I assume that will be suitable for fermentation? I've tried to convince the wife that a fermenting fridge with temp control would be a worthwhile investment but she is less convinced than I of the economic benefits.... Ill use the next week to get the extra ingredients for the 2nd batch. Hopefully I can get the stuff and put the 2nd down soon after the first is finished.

Ill continue to post updates as I go along. Thanks again for the advice

Regards,

Matt

 

[Swordsman]

Great reply rendo. Too bad i didn't get it till after i'd done the brew LOL. I did the brew last night and completely forgot to come check here first. I basically followed the recipe i posted on here but made a few changes. I use the coopers brewing sugar for my dex/malto addition (i can't remember the ratio) but always work it out as around 80% dex anyone confirm? Basically it ends up adding around 400grm dex in the end and 100gm maltodextrin. I also put in 600gm ldme instead of 500. Never thought of using wheat malt....have to see if my guy has that in store its a good idea thanks!

followed the hop bill as prescribed. The short boil times didn't give a huge amount of bitterness based on my wort tasting but its nice and 'spicey' from the hallertau (which i wanted). i hope the cascade citrus note comes through because i think that gives lagers (well i love cascade so all beers LOL) a nice lift. I needed the dex to give it a fairly high alcohol level because its a 'mates in front of footy' beer if you know what i mean and i already have a lighter lager (3.9% involving dry hopped grapefruit.....not a great success but getting there in the bottle LOL).

I put in 400gm of the kit in 5L of water/steeping liquid solution because i wanted to boil out a bit of the POR that is in the can. I was told that Wal's kits use POR in their lager's but not sure. It definitely has real hops in it, it gets stuck to the bottom of the can LOL. Definite hop aroma in the can as you pour it out. I think its more like a dry hop really because you just have hops in the fermenter floating around now.....

Biggest problem was temp. It was only 15 deg outside when i put it down but the pitch temp was a bit high at nearly 18deg....hmm not great. I got it to cool down to 15-16deg so far and its still dropping slowly. Thing is i didn't have any s23 (naughty naughty not checking before starting work) but the wal's can did come with a yeast with 'lager yeast' written on it. The kit was new with a good useby and i was told by my home brew guy that it is real lager strain and it does work quite well...but is VERY slow at 12deg or below but seems to like working at 15deg. So seems i might have got lucky there and ended up with about teh right temp for this yeast though it seems high. I will keep trying to get it to come down my last lager (a FWK) was done at 12-13deg and it went well so just hope i haven't got it too hot!

Thanks for your help.

PS. Just went and checked on it and its still at 15deg but fermentation definitely has started based on what i can smell out of the airlock. So far so good i think....

Hi mate...yeah I was meaning to get back to you, tried to write earlier, but the kids are full on :excl: (until then are asleep and the housework is done)

Anyhow, i took a look at the recipe, given the detail and care you are going into, you have no worries. because either way you will learn a lot from the brew so that the next brew you do will be even better. All that aside, here are my thoughts:

Get the brew going now...(or at least this weekend)....it is getting warmer. the ldme ratio is fine, but what I do nowadays is use more like .750kg of ldme and .250kg of wheat malt, the wheat malt gives a certaindryness/crispness and it really helps add to the head retention(as does the carapils). Then I back out the dex to about 200g-300g or even remove it all together, Carapils...tops!.Yep...use up the caramber..i cant bear to waste anything either...and its bugger all. I like the hop schedule, i think that is fine....you might have a reasonable bitterness at 27.5, which isnt over the top at all, but I say do it and then u will know, it wont be SUPER bitter, but you will get to know what sort of IBU level u like. When u were in the extract designer, what malt kit did you use? or are the wals kits in that spreadsheet? The reason I ask this is to understand if teh spreadsheet has taken into account the IBU in the wals kit. Yes...its a great tool! Well done for using it...again, you put that sort of effort in, then you will end up with great beer eventually...its unavoidable no need to boil part of the kit, i usually boil my hops schedule in the carapils steepings that I make, there is alot to read about boiling hops at the supposed right SG...but leave that for another day to tinker around with that...(ps...I hear wals kits are fantastic...but i have never tried, i know many who have....)

If you have the S23 yeast then yep, use that for sure, if you need to buy yeast then mayeb try 34/70 or whitelabs liquid yeast ($$'s!) WLP830 German lager yeast. For now S23 is fine.

Please make sure you use your hydrometer, once fermentation has finished make sure you give it a few good days, at least 5 days rest before you bottle it, once FG has been reached..(i am guessing 1014?) then when you are about to let it rest you might want to consider adding finings to clear your brew. I use gelatine a lot, its cheap, works a treat and really clears your brew. It needs about 3 or so days to work reasonably well. Heaps to read up on here regarding "how to gelatine"...in very short I basically add 5g of gelatine (one heaped teaspoon) to 250ml of boiled water that has cooled to about 70deg-ish...I let the gelatine sit there for a while to rehydrate, then stir and rest and stir and repeat until it all is dissolved. Go open your fermenter, pour the gelatine mix slowly across the top of the fermenter covering as much surface area as possible. Goes without saying you need to keep whatever comes in contact with your brew sanitary... give it a go...u'll notice the difference.

rendo
(ps....I think I am trying to rival pistol patch with these long rants...but I have some VERY VERY big shoes to fill there and I think BjornJ beats me to the finish line with his long posts....one day maybe when I become a BIAB jedi...I think he is BIAB yoda)

 

[Jimboley]

"I should point out though that so far I\'ve only followed the instructions on the can. No extra additions. "

"To keep you updated, I put down the first batch yesterday as per the Coopers instructions on the can. I'm using my Garage as the location, it has an average temp of 16C so I assume that will be suitable for fermentation? "


G\'day Matt,

Most brewers start off simple. The instructions on that range of cans is pretty detailed, with good basic advice. I brewed Kit & Kilo style for the first 7 years brewing at home. I must say they were pretty ordinary, but things have changed now, there\'s been great advances with yeast & pre hopped malt technology. As a result K&K brews are tasting better than they used to.

Some Lager yeasts make the best beers at 5-7C, but that kit yeast doesnt seem to make any better beer at that low temp. In fact I reckon the best Eruo Lagers I\'m made were fermented at 18-19C. Nothing wrong with 16C at ALL. You may find that it takes a fair bit longer to finish fermenting then at 18C. Remember it\'s more important to keep the temp steady then to keep as low as possible.
In other words a steady 18C is better then 14C - 18C. I used to put a blanket on at night and a wet towel during the day.

Keep that beer in bottle as long as you can hold off....taste best after 7 weeks.

All the best with the next brew!

Cheers

James

 

[rendo]

happy brewing guys!!!

 

[MattC8]

Thanks Guys,
My EL has been down for about 3 and 1/2 days now and it would appear to me that little is actually happening. Visually there is no sign at all of any scum and I haven't seen or heard a bubble yet either. Given that Its pretty stable at 16C, is that OK? Should I just wait a week or so or should I do 'something' (WTF I don't know).
I took a hydrometer reading last knight and it was virtually the same as when I started (1041). That's approximately 1 below the OG of 1042 so I guess something must be happening. Right??

As usual I'm grateful for any comments or advice.

Regards,

Matt

 

[mwd]

Should really be starting up after 3.5 days I would suggest bringing it into a room where it is a bit warmer and gently rock the fermenter to get a swirling action going to get the yeast back into suspension. Soon as it starts going you can put it back in 16C room. Need to be careful sometimes night temperatures can drop very low and cause the yeast to remain dormant.

I could not really read a hydrometer that accurately to be able to see a one point drop.

 

[keifer33]

If your hydro is calibrated to 20c and sample was around 20ish then 16c is about 1 point. Pretty much after 3 and a bit days it should be well underway. I would take the above advice and try to gentle rock the fermenter and keep it stable, I find if its constant 16c during the day it might drop a fair chunk over night, try wrapping a sheet/towel/shirt and see what the temp is when you check it first thing in the morning.

 

[MattC8]

Thanks Guys,
Ill go and try that advice now. Stay tuned for further updates (by that I mean please continue to respond to any further requests for advice I have).

Regards,

Matt

 

[rendo]

HI Matt,

My gutfeel is to wait and 'she'll be right'. Where abouts are u in this wonderful country? Its still pretty cold in some areas, especially at night as one person said here. Temp fluctuations can make the yeast be rather naughty and slow. I cant believe I am saying this, but you could just wrap a blanket or something around it just to help the temp stay a little more constant. Fermentation (once it starts) creates its own heat, so it often it a degree or two above ambient temps (exothermic reaction I believe it called, thinking back to high school, a LONG time ago). Is it sitting on a concrete/tiled floor? Get it off the floor or put something underneath it if so, u know how well the concrete/tiles can suck the warmth outta anything that sits/stands on it. DONT use a heater or heat pad etc etc. Its a lager yeast and they love these temps, they can just be slow to start. A little shake or swirl wont hurt anything. You could give it a gentle stir, but I recommend that you dont, last thing u want to do is risk introducing an infection, ps, never stor a brew once fermentation has started. U will encourage oxidisation/oxidation (that is yucky flavours)? I always get that one wrong...its one of those two oxi words.....

How did you pitch the yeast? Did you sprinkle the dry yeast on top? Did you rehydrate the yeast? What temp was the wort (brew) when you pitched the yeast? What temp was the 'yeast' when u pitched? eg had it been sitting in the fridge and u opened and pitched? was it kept at room temp? id you microwave the yeast to get it hot (joking...dont ever do this!!)...(i will tell u more on yeast tips, once u let me know how u pitched the yeast)

anyway, as annoying as it is, just wait, I am pretty sure all is well. It will get going and it could well be a slow ferment, which isnt a bad thing at all. say about 15 days as a really 'rough' guess...hydrometer is your friend and several days wait once the gravity stops will do your beer wonders?

rendo

Thanks Guys,
Ill go and try that advice now. Stay tuned for further updates (by that I mean please continue to respond to any further requests for advice I have).

Regards,

Matt

 

[rendo]

Matt, see my post above, but also take a look at this thread, you arent alone. Take KitRou's experience as a bit of encouragement it'lll be fine

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=47386

rendo

Thanks Guys,
Ill go and try that advice now. Stay tuned for further updates (by that I mean please continue to respond to any further requests for advice I have).

Regards,

Matt

 

[Swordsman]

Thanks Guys,
My EL has been down for about 3 and 1/2 days now and it would appear to me that little is actually happening. Visually there is no sign at all of any scum and I haven't seen or heard a bubble yet either. Given that Its pretty stable at 16C, is that OK? Should I just wait a week or so or should I do 'something' (WTF I don't know).
I took a hydrometer reading last knight and it was virtually the same as when I started (1041). That's approximately 1 below the OG of 1042 so I guess something must be happening. Right??

As usual I'm grateful for any comments or advice.

Regards,

Matt

Keep the faith Matt i think she will be right. I'm a newb at some of this lager stuff but have been home brewing for a few years and all the great advice provided so far tallies with my experience. Temp constant is better than a few degress off spec. Yeast (ones included in kits and most dry yeasts too) are very tolerant of a bit of off spec temp. At worst they generate a few different (potentially unadvisable) flavours.

In saying that i'd think your lager should be going by now? As i noted in my earleir posts i put down my lager recipe (based off a wal's country brewer lager can) and had to use the provided lager yeast because i found myself short of s23. It started off a bit warmer than i wanted. It took about 24 hours for any activity to occur and then once i had the temp down to 14-15degress it really got going and by the second day was popping the airlock along nicely with a krausen on top and a definite lager style 'sulphur' smell out of the fermenter. Its still popping away now (5 or so days later). Took an SG reading just now and it is at 1021 which is a fraction low for me and shows that i am running it a bit higher in temp than my last lager. Started at 1042 was aiming for higher 1045 or so but for whatever reason the estimate was a bit off. Sample was very yeasty and its got a definite sulphur tang.

Just stick with it i'd say it will get there in the end. I had one temp excursion so far this brew when it went up to 17deg during the day and i let the towel go dry. What i am doing is wetting a towel around the ferementer (its off the ground) then as it dries out at night i just let it dry so it becomes like a blanket and next morning i wet it again. simple system but its holding it at 14-16 no prob so far...

 

[MattC8]

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. Keep it coming

Regards,

Matt

 

[MattC8]

Sorry Rendo,
I just realised I didn't actually answer your question. I prepare the yeast by mixing it with about a cup of warm water and placing a spoonful of sugar in, then mixing. I leave it for about half an hour to ensure that it is activating. Then I add to the wort mix. Its usually about 26C in the fermenter when I add the yeast mix. I don't have a thermometer reading in the liquid yeast mixture I prepare.

Regards,

Matt

 

[rendo]

Matt.....well done, u are already doing well by rehydrating your yeast and letting it activate etc. No advice needed

The only thing I do on top of what you do now is make a yeast starter. This is a reasonably easy process, but it just involves a little planning. Essentially you do a mini brew 1-2L in a big glass jar or something like that...mix it with some LDME or something similar to about 1.040, then brew away. This way the yeast multiples dramatically in your mini-brew (yeast starter) and then after 2-3 days (depending) you prepare your brew/fermenter etc and pitch the yeast starter in. That way u get heaps more yeast in your brew, giving it a good head start.

Not essential for what you are doing...try it one day, dont worry about it right now. There is heaps to read here on "yeast starters", just google it...

rendo

really for what you are doing the returns arent there. Once

Sorry Rendo,
I just realised I didn't actually answer your question. I prepare the yeast by mixing it with about a cup of warm water and placing a spoonful of sugar in, then mixing. I leave it for about half an hour to ensure that it is activating. Then I add to the wort mix. Its usually about 26C in the fermenter when I add the yeast mix. I don't have a thermometer reading in the liquid yeast mixture I prepare.

Regards,

Matt

 

[MattC8]

Thanks Rendo,
I'm pleased to report that as of last night the airlock is bubbling in the EL. It seems to be going fairly regularly so there is definitely something happening in the fermenter now. Thanks a lot to everybody who has taken the time to reply to my questions.

Rendo, I'm sorry to take up more of you time, but I have a few more questions about the Yeast Starter you mentioned above. Do I need to boil it? Or do I just mix the LDME (how much?) and the water and yeast together? Also do I add the whole thing to my fermenter with the wort when I am brewing?

Regards,

Matt

 

[Swordsman]

Thanks Rendo,
I'm pleased to report that as of last night the airlock is bubbling in the EL. It seems to be going fairly regularly so there is definitely something happening in the fermenter now. Thanks a lot to everybody who has taken the time to reply to my questions.

Rendo, I'm sorry to take up more of you time, but I have a few more questions about the Yeast Starter you mentioned above. Do I need to boil it? Or do I just mix the LDME (how much?) and the water and yeast together? Also do I add the whole thing to my fermenter with the wort when I am brewing?

Regards,

Matt

Good to hear matt. Did you do anything to get it started? (temp change, shake it around etc.) My lager has got down to 1011-1012 on the hydrometer as of 10 mins ago (around 11 days). This was a fraction fast compared to my last lager but the temps were higher than i wanted. I decided to bring it into my laundry (constant temp of about 18-19 deg all day round) because the rapidly warming days in bris were causing too much variation in temp during the day (too hot). The last reading was 1021 about 5 days ago so it took a while to get down the last 10 or so units.

Am looking from advice from more experienced lager brewers as to how to proceed at this point. I left my last lager on the trub for about 7 days after it finished (purely because i was not home and had no ability to do anything with it). I have heard this is a good idea esp with lagers to help the yeast 'clean up' any byproducts from earlier fermentation? The higher temp i held it at for the last few days is also referred to as a diacetyl rest?? Of course i did it by accident because i had no choice but anyway LOL.

I have tasted the beer at this point and its quite good....needs lagering obviously with sulphur on the nose but the hallertau has come through with a nice spicyness. is still very cloudy so will probably go the finingins/gelatine route when i rack it off to another fermenter after a week on the trub.

Any help or tips on this much appreciated guys....

EDIT: PS Is it advisable to dry hop a lager? If so what are a few hops used. I would be looking for a very light addition of hop aromo/flavour to give a bit of fruitiness. Just an idea i had just now.

 

[rendo]

Hey Matt,
Dont be sorry...I have learnt SO MUCH from the guys here and it is my pleasure to help others (where I can) I just hope u make even better beer because of what you learn here, I did and do.

100g of LDME per 1L....that should give you a solution/wort that is around 1.040. You technically are meant to boil it and you probably should...i often do not, but it is bad advice for me to say that, so yes, you should boil it as being sanitary is of prime importance when directly dealing with the yeast etc.

There are SO MANY threads here about yeast starters, have a read, get confused then go experiment...i even made a few yeast starters just for fun, to get use to doing it. Also, instead of LDME you can use 'goo' from a kit. I bought a cheapo kit (on special at coles...like $5) and that way I have 1.7kg of goo to use as starter malt. I put the goo into old jars (usually honey jars, similar substance really) and it keeps just perfectly.

I like to pitch an active starter, by that I mean the starter has gone thru the growth phase and is now fermenting. Then I pitch. Some will wait for the ferment to finish then put the wort/mini-beer in the fridge to settle the yeast and pour the excess liquid off then pitch the yeast, that will work too, but again, I like to pitch an active starter...the lot goes in...works for me...I also ensure my starter is 'brewed' at about the same temp as what the fermentation will be.

Seriously though, do some searches on the yeast starter, (eg this link)you dont need a stir plate yet, i dont have one, would be cool, but I am getting by, just give it a shake every so often, and if you want to really deepen your knowledge on yeast then read the maltose falcon linky..here....its a long read, but man it is far too much knowledge about yeast....however every bit of it is gold.

rendo

Thanks Rendo,
I'm pleased to report that as of last night the airlock is bubbling in the EL. It seems to be going fairly regularly so there is definitely something happening in the fermenter now. Thanks a lot to everybody who has taken the time to reply to my questions.

Rendo, I'm sorry to take up more of you time, but I have a few more questions about the Yeast Starter you mentioned above. Do I need to boil it? Or do I just mix the LDME (how much?) and the water and yeast together? Also do I add the whole thing to my fermenter with the wort when I am brewing?

Regards,

Matt