Electric Hlt Advice For Herms - Size And Power

[Bizier]

I do not yet have a dedicated HLT vessel, and unlike the many, seemingly obligatory, previous superfluous purchases, I just want this right.

I will be supplying to an 80L MLT and 100L kettle, looking at regular 44L - 66L finished boil volumes - more on occasion where I wish to push it.

Assuming my elements do not concurrently draw, what is the consensus on the upper limit of a HLT element? Can I sneak more than 10A from the standard breakers, or should I go with a 2400W max? It looks like I have 2 x 20A breakers in my meter box, but I will probably move house within the year to an unknown quantity.

Is there a reasonably priced 2400W SS-sheathed weldless style, rather than 2200W?

I plan to brew with my hlt on a timer for early brews, so my gut is telling me to get a 100L HLT so that I can heat the entire amount needed for the brew to strike temp, so the sparge water is at least warm.

Advice appreciated.

 

[QldKev]

I think you will get more than 2400w out of the older fused boards, but with cuircut breakers you may be pushing it. I would go the 2200w cause this could allow you to run the element and the controller of the 1 point. When you do the maths for times to heat water there is not a major difference between 2200 and 2400.

eg.
80L
From 20c to 70c = 50c difference
2200w = 127 mins
2400w = 116 mins

I'm getting close to finishing off my 3V RIMS setup and have the same design constraints as you. Limited power.
I have a 82L HLT, 100L Mash tun and 140L Kettle.
I have 1 x 2400w element in the RIMS (would have prefered a 2200w)

I have two options I'm looking at.

Option 1.
Put one of the 2200w elements in my HLT

If I was prepared for the brew,
I could fill the HLT to the brim and set a timer to kick it in.

If I was not prepared (ie knock off work at 12 and decide to do a brew)
Initally heating all the water (mash and sparge water) in my kettle to 1 degree cooler than my target strike temp.
Then transferring the sparge water to the HLT, the controller/2200w element in the HLT to bring it up to sparge temp
Then pump the required water into the mash tun for the mash in. Start the recirc and turn on the RIMS to get the perfect mash temp.

If I was trying to heat the all the water from scratch in the HLT from the 2200w element it would take about 2hrs. And then when I topped up for the sparge water I may run out of time before I need it after mashout.
With the kettle, I can get the full volume of water up to mash in temp in under 30mins. (I run 2 x NASA burners under it)

Option 2.
Do not use a 2200w element in the HLT and use a LPG burner under it. (I already have a spare that could do the job)
This would mean I do not need another 10amp power point. The downside it I would have to manually monitor the sparge water temp.
It would also give me the option to put the mash in water in the kettle and the sparge water in the HLT for heating. Having half the water in the kettle initially would mean I could get to temp in about 15mins.


Hope this gives you some ideas.


QldKev

 

[raven19]

Love the electric brewery, as you noted in your OP, the timer means you can set the HLT the night before and know the next morning it will be up to temp nicely.

+1 to QldKev's comments.

In addition, an 'over the side' 2400W element is a handy addition to add to your HLT or kettle, etc., to help get things up to strike/boil temps quicker! A great versatile tool in the brewery.

Furthermore, my big kettle runs 2 x 2400W ceramic sheathed elements and gets 100L up to the boil no worries - takes a bit longer being a bigger volume but it does have the energy to do it.

Good luck with the build!

 

[chappo1970]

Completely agree with the advice given there by QldKev. Great advice mate.

The hardest thing about designing your brewery is deciding on it's overall maximum capacity in my opinion. Make the system too big and you are stuck with making large batches of beer that you may not want, like a special comp beer; conversely make it too small and you won't be able to keep up the supply of beers you like. Once you have decided on the maximum capacity this will dictate the size of elements, pumps, plumbing, false bottoms etc, etc, etc that you need. Also try to consider your length of brew day and how that will effect your brewing and brewing habits. If it takes you two hours to hit strike and another hour and a half to hit sparge this may not be ideal? It will also directly impact on the length of your brew day especially if you brew like I did on an ad-hoc basis.

I must admit I am a bit confused by your post. If we are talking HERMS it does not require a big Heat Exchange Vessel nor does it require a big element to drive the system. In fact if all of the components are selected properly you should be able to happily run the element, pump and controller (SSR PID) off the one 10 amp circuit. My last HERMS heat exchange vessel was custom made (by me and Sera) unfortunately I don't have the photo's of it anymore. It was a 3lt vessel (100mm dia SS tube) with a 2000w element and 8m of stainless steel coil. It worked incredibly well and gave very quick ramp up times as well as very stable hysteresis data.

If you are talking HLT only, then I would think 100lt HLT coupled with a 80lt and a 100lt Kettle would be ideal for double and triple batches. I would question if was suitable for single batches as the MLT would be too big for the grain bill and effective grain bed depth as well higher rates of evaporation from the kettle due to the surface area of the boiling wort. That said you can easily adjust your recipes to suit your system once you have worked out all your parameters and variables.

Anyway hope this advice helps you a little and am happy to discuss your options in a non judgemental fashion as each brewer and brewery are very unique and not one box fits all.

Cheers

Chap Chap

 

[kevin_smevin]

I think you will get more than 2400w out of the older fused boards, but with cuircut breakers you may be pushing it. I would go the 2200w cause this could allow you to run the element and the controller of the 1 point. When you do the maths for times to heat water there is not a major difference between 2200 and 2400.

eg.
80L
From 20c to 70c = 50c difference
2200w = 127 mins
2400w = 116 mins

I'm getting close to finishing off my 3V RIMS setup and have the same design constraints as you. Limited power.
I have a 82L HLT, 100L Mash tun and 140L Kettle.
I have 1 x 2400w element in the RIMS (would have prefered a 2200w)

I have two options I'm looking at.

Option 1.
Put one of the 2200w elements in my HLT

If I was prepared for the brew,
I could fill the HLT to the brim and set a timer to kick it in.

If I was not prepared (ie knock off work at 12 and decide to do a brew)
Initally heating all the water (mash and sparge water) in my kettle to 1 degree cooler than my target strike temp.
Then transferring the sparge water to the HLT, the controller/2200w element in the HLT to bring it up to sparge temp
Then pump the required water into the mash tun for the mash in. Start the recirc and turn on the RIMS to get the perfect mash temp.

If I was trying to heat the all the water from scratch in the HLT from the 2200w element it would take about 2hrs. And then when I topped up for the sparge water I may run out of time before I need it after mashout.
With the kettle, I can get the full volume of water up to mash in temp in under 30mins. (I run 2 x NASA burners under it)

Option 2.
Do not use a 2200w element in the HLT and use a LPG burner under it. (I already have a spare that could do the job)
This would mean I do not need another 10amp power point. The downside it I would have to manually monitor the sparge water temp.
It would also give me the option to put the mash in water in the kettle and the sparge water in the HLT for heating. Having half the water in the kettle initially would mean I could get to temp in about 15mins.


Hope this gives you some ideas.


QldKev

Hi Kev. How do you calculate the time it would take to heat water from one temp to the next. I have found a formula in the past but cant for the life of me figure out where i found it.

Cheers

 

[Bizier]

Cheers guys, good advice.

Yep talking hlt only here.

And kev, you have confirmed my thoughts. If I decide to pull a brew off at short notice or back to back, it looks like the old spiral burner might get a workout in the kettle first up.

And I will just stick with 2200W.

I'm so close it is not funny.

 

[QldKev]

Hi Kev. How do you calculate the time it would take to heat water from one temp to the next. I have found a formula in the past but cant for the life of me figure out where i found it.

Cheers

I've got one I scripted on my web site; under Water Heating

home.exetel.com/qldkev
(the address is also in my sig)

The scripting needs cleaning up, but it does calculate it correctly.


QldKev

 

[argon]

Cheers guys, good advice.

Yep talking hlt only here.

And kev, you have confirmed my thoughts. If I decide to pull a brew off at short notice or back to back, it looks like the old spiral burner might get a workout in the kettle first up.

And I will just stick with 2200W.

I'm so close it is not funny.

At short notice you'll definitely need to fire the HLT, but i don't reckon you'll ever need to fire it when doing a back to back.

I occasionally do back to back double batches with a 50HLT, 50MT, 80K with 2200w element in the HLT. Total volume required per double batch is typically around 62L and I find that the strike water for my second double batch is ready before i've finished running off to the kettle.

My process goes a bit like this;
- have the full HLT on a timer set for strike temp (say around 72C) ready for next day brewing
- dough in
- fill the HLT with room temp water and set the tempmate on the HLT for 90C sparge water
- at the end of 60min mash i vorlauf and run-off to kettle the first runnings
- by the time the first runnings are in the kettle (and brought up to mash out temp) the HLT is up to 90C
- 2 equal batch sparges at 90C
- I now have the HLT about half full with 90C water, so i reset the tempmate to 72C and top up with room temp water till i hit the strike temp.
- After cleaning the mash tun, i dough in with the second batch, top up the HLT as necessary, set the tempmate to 90C and by the time i'm ready to sparge again the water is where i need it at 90C well before i've emptied the kettle.

It's nice not to use the burner as much as possible... as i can't stand running out of gas in the middle of a session, which seems to be an all too regular occurrence. I'm planning upgrade the kettle soon with 2 x 2200w elements which will hopefully free me of gas dependence and make things a little easier when doing quiet night time brews.

 

[QldKev]

Good point by Chappo there about brewery sizes and realising that if you make a large volume system it will prevent you from doing singles. I plan on making triple sized batchs in mine. I will be keeping my old single sized BIAB pot for any 1 off beers, like a wheat beer or a stout.

Also as noted if you take too long to reach mash in temps etc, you may be better off with a smaller system and do a back to back brew to up the volumes. The benifit here is it allows a different brew on the second.

The other idea I though of it running a LPG burner under the HLT and also using an electric heating element. This will allow you to run both for a quick ramp up time and once you are close to the temp turn off the LPG burner and allow the elec one running form a controller hit the numbers better. You would need to provide good heat sheidling around the element, but I think it would work great.

QldKev

 

[crozdog]

Hi Kev. How do you calculate the time it would take to heat water from one temp to the next. I have found a formula in the past but cant for the life of me figure out where i found it.

Cheers

The energy required to raise the temperature of a substance is a physical property known as the specific heat of the particular substance. The specific heat of water is 4.2J/g/ C, i.e. 4.2 joules of energy are required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree centigrade. Using larger and more familiar units:

Energy required (kJ) = 4.2 x volume (litres) x temperature rise (C)


an example...

volume = 80L
element = 2400W = 2.4kW

start temp = 20C
fin temp = 100C
temp rise = 80C

4.2 x 80 x 80 = 26,880 kJ
= 26.88 MJ

To convert megajoules (MJ) into kWh divide by 3.6 (1kWh = 3.6MJ) thus 26.88MJ = 7.47kWh. This is the amount of energy that must be put into the water. Using a 2.4kW element (2.4kW per hr), the sum is thus...

7.47 /2.4 = 3 hrs 7 mins to raise from 20C to 100C (boil), not counting any heat losses.

 

[seemax]

The losses can be fairly high.... a thin walled pot (or urn) in Melbourne winter with < 10C ambients don't help. Insulation makes all the difference.

I keep tellin' the wife we need to move up north... higher ambients

 

[Bizier]

I have basically given up on single batches, but I am toying with making a tiny brewery for experiments, say 10L. But, as with all things, time is required.

 

[matho]

I came across this place during my searches at the back of their catalouge is a technical chapter.
i have cut the chapter out a put it into a PDF (sorry about the first couple of pages). I think pages 18.4 and 18.13 will be of most interrest to fellow AHBers.

View attachment TEE_chapter_18.pdf

cheers matho

 

[Bizier]

Haha, I was going through whether you were commenting on calculations on insulations etc... then I re-read your post. Good resource.

I decided to get an Al 120L HLT - which might become my kettle (but I only get one chance to decide because HLT needs more holes). Straight away one was on Gumtree for $100 brand new. Even better the seller's kid's sweetheart is in my neighbourhood, saving me 2hrs of driving.

 

[matho]

i have been playing around with a spreadsheet today and i thought i would share it

View attachment element_rating.xls


a quick explaination

in column B fill out the amount if water , the temperature rise and the time you want it in and it will tell you the size of the element you need

column E fill out the volume and the wattage and it will tell you the deg per min temp rise

the bottom of the spreadsheet uses the result E5 in to work out timing of the brewing procedure, on a side note all the calculations work on a 20% loss.

cheers matho

 

[Bizier]

Good work Matho.

I am looking to insulate well and measure my rise times to add into my own calculations because the Auber PID will skip a step if I specify an unachievable rise time.

As an update to my melodramatic saga, the girl showed up with the 5mm 120L pot I was offered, only for me to realise that the sticker on the base said 4mm 80L - instant refund accepted. So I am still on the search for a 120L pot - I figure the larger pot will be fine, and will allow extra water from my immersion chiller to be used as hot cleaning water.

 

[Logman]

At short notice you'll definitely need to fire the HLT, but i don't reckon you'll ever need to fire it when doing a back to back.

I occasionally do back to back double batches with a 50HLT with 2200w element in the HLT.

My process goes a bit like this;
- have the full HLT on a timer set for strike temp (say around 72C) ready for next day brewing

How long does it take to get around 45 litres up to 72c with the kind of setup - keg HLT?

 

[matho]

thanks Bizier,

20% is fairly large loss but i think its the worst case scenario. I have changed the spreadsheet so you can add percentage loss, i played with it and it looks like my camping mat insulated keg HLT has about a 5% loss.

View attachment element_rating.xls

cheers matho

 

[matho]

So i have been stuck inside all day so i have tweaked the spreadsheet. Using the table on page 18.4 of the TEE catalouge i have add the calculated loss from the top of the pot. Now down the bottom with the steps you will see the calculated percentage loss for the step temp and the diameter of the opening of the pot.
The times are calculated at the step temp so in the real world they will be a little faster because the loss isnt going the highest all the way thru the step. I think it shows how much heat is lost thru the top, if you can reduce the opening at the top then you would get alot better efficiency, also that thursty's idea of floating something on the top will reduce the loss dramatically thus increasing the vigour of the boil.

View attachment element_rating.xls

also i did this on open office and saved it as an xls, i have tried it out on windows works spreadsheet but not on excel so if it doesnt work let me know.

cheers matho

 

[Bizier]

Is the loss field (set to 20%) representing loss per hour? Or somehow just lost overall?