Designing Stronger Beers

[newguy]

I am thinking about making a RIS atm.

What is the go with the BU:GU ratio? is there a topic where this is explained

I was going to do
85.1% base malt
8.1% roast barley (the dehusked stuff from WM to reduce the astringency)
3.2% Choc
3.6% Special B

to around OG 1109 and IBU = 70-80

will this be balanced with age accoding to that funny BU:GU ratio?

It looks good. 70 IBU will be low.

The BU:GU ratio, as far as I know, was first mentioned by Ray Daniels in Designing Great Beers. I think he states in the book that he got the numbers both from the BJCP guidelines and from the analysis of recipes that made it to the 2nd round of the AHA's NHC.

Daniels states that a RIS has an average BU:GU ratio of 0.9. Using your target OG of 1.109, that means you'd need 98 IBU. A RIS I brewed has a BU:GU ratio of 0.91 (83 IBU and 1.091 OG), so I guess his average value of 0.9 can be believed. FWIW, my RIS turned out goldilocks-style "just right". It has a nice sweetness up front but finishes rather roasty and bitter. The bitterness is about about the same level as the sweetness.

Don't be impatient when you brew it because it can easily take at least 6-9 months for it to age and for all the flavours to properly develop. This is a beer in which you want oxygen ingress over time so don't use oxygen barrier or oxygen scavenging caps. A good friend brewed a RIS at almost the exact same time that I did, which is 18 months ago now. He used oxygen barrier caps. His still tastes rough - fresh - the flavours haven't mellowed.

 

[white.grant]

Yeah I've though about differing extraction efficiencies in higher gravity worts, thanks to drtomc, as well as sugars/colours left behind in the mash tun as I mentioned above.

I usually take the lowered efficiency into account when I design a beer (i.e. 'normal' gravity beers I set brewhouse efficiency at 75%, higher gravity beers I set it at 65%). It's pretty well known that extraction efficiency of sugars does differ with increasing gravity. I haven't read much anywhere about different extraction of colour compounds at different gravities. As drtomc said, it probably depends on a lot of things.

One thing I know is that the beersmith definately doesn't change the EBC of a given recipe asthe gravity increases. Maybe too complex a situation to include.

Hey Ronin,

The colour thing is a bit counterintuitive, perhaps if you think of the pale base malt as white paint.

If you mix a large amount of white paint into a darker colour it will become lighter. Black will become grey etc.... The more base malt you add to a given recipe the more you will lighten the final colour.

cheers

grant

 

[Ronin]

Hey Ronin,

The colour thing is a bit counterintuitive, perhaps if you think of the pale base malt as white paint.

If you mix a large amount of white paint into a darker colour it will become lighter. Black will become grey etc.... The more base malt you add to a given recipe the more you will lighten the final colour.

cheers

grant

OK that makes sense. As you say a bit counterintuitive and I don't think I'll believe it until I see it for myself, but that's an understandable explanation.

So does the roast flavour get 'diluted' in a similar way? If that's the case then you do need to have higher percentages of roast malt in a RIS than you do in a normal stout.

Thanks for the simple response,

James

 

[mje1980]

Forgive me if im sounding rude, but yes, it IS that simple. If you're making enough coffee to fill a 1.5 litre thermos, do you add one teaspoon of coffee?? No, because that would make it quite weak, both in flavour and colour. You would add the same amount in comparison for 1.5 litres, as for a single cup. Same deal for beers.

 

[white.grant]

OK that makes sense. As you say a bit counterintuitive and I don't think I'll believe it until I see it for myself, but that's an understandable explanation.

So does the roast flavour get 'diluted' in a similar way? If that's the case then you do need to have higher percentages of roast malt in a RIS than you do in a normal stout.

Thanks for the simple response,

James

The article discusses increasing the dark malts too, just not as much as the base malt. The author points says that this is because the darker phenolic roast flavours are quite powerful, so you don't need to scale them up as much. There's an example recipe and I think he ups the dark malts by .2%.

For me the important point to note from the article is that you can't multiply a recipe by 2 and hope to have a good barley wine, or a russian imperial stout. You have to consider rebalancing colour, bitterness, gravity efficiency and flavours -- they all react in quite different ways to the process.


cheers

grant

 

[Ronin]

Forgive me if im sounding rude, but yes, it IS that simple. If you're making enough coffee to fill a 1.5 litre thermos, do you add one teaspoon of coffee?? No, because that would make it quite weak, both in flavour and colour. You would add the same amount in comparison for 1.5 litres, as for a single cup. Same deal for beers.

I don't think it's rude at all, you don't get to where I am in science without learning how to debate without getting offended. Keep going. This is how I learn.

That being said I don't believe the coffee analogy (is that an analogy?) is an appropriate one, nor that you quite understand the question I am asking (No offence ;D ). You add 1 teaspoon of coffee to 1 cup of water and if you want 5 cups of coffee (a thermos) you add 5 teaspoons of coffee. You're talking about increasing the volume of product, not the strength. I'm not interested in increasing the volume of the coffee (as in your analogy), I'm interested in increasing the strength of the coffee (well, beer really).

To use the coffee analogy, it's like putting two teaspoons of coffee in a cup and having the coffee come out lighter in colour than the cup with only one teaspoon.

Both the article helpfully posted and the several replies I've gotten suggest that if you want a beer (stout in particular) twice as strong you can't just double the recipe (i.e. keep the percentages the same) without the beer becoming unbalanced. It appears you can double the base malt, but you can't double the roast malt nor any crystal malt in the recipe. However it is also apparent that if you do double the roast malt (keep the % the same) while doubling the whole grist, the colour of the beer would be less than the original beer even though the % roast malt is the same.

Colour of a higher gravity beer seems to be quite different. OK I'll add a third wort to the previous example, hopefully that'll clear up what I'm asking.

Wort 1 = 5kg total malt in 20L with 0.5% roast malt = 250g roast malt = Weak beer, darker beer

Wort 1.5 = 10kg total malt in 20L with 0.5% roast malt = 500g roast malt = Strong beer, lighter in colour than wort 1 despite there being twice as much roast malt

Wort 2 = 10kg total malt in 20L 0.25% roast malt = 250g roast malt = Stronger beer, lighter beer than wort 1.5

Wort 1 and wort 1.5 have the same % of roast malt, but wort 1.5 will be much lighter than wort 1 even though there's twice as much roast malt. Wort 1.5 is what I'm trying to understand as the percentage of roast is the same but the colour will be different.

Sorry for the long posts guys but I think I'm close to understanding this.

Thanks for the patience,

James

 

[mje1980]

I don't think it's rude at all, you don't get to where I am in science without learning how to debate without getting offended. Keep going. This is how I learn.

That being said I don't believe the coffee analogy (is that an analogy?) is an appropriate one, nor that you quite understand the question I am asking (No offence ;D ). You add 1 teaspoon of coffee to 1 cup of water and if you want 5 cups of coffee (a thermos) you add 5 teaspoons of coffee. You're talking about increasing the volume of product, not the strength. I'm not interested in increasing the volume of the coffee (as in your analogy), I'm interested in increasing the strength of the coffee (well, beer really).

To use the coffee analogy, it's like putting two teaspoons of coffee in a cup and having the coffee come out lighter in colour than the cup with only one teaspoon.

Both the article helpfully posted and the several replies I've gotten suggest that if you want a beer (stout in particular) twice as strong you can't just double the recipe (i.e. keep the percentages the same) without the beer becoming unbalanced. It appears you can double the base malt, but you can't double the roast malt nor any crystal malt in the recipe. However it is also apparent that if you do double the roast malt (keep the % the same) while doubling the whole grist, the colour of the beer would be less than the original beer even though the % roast malt is the same.

Colour of a higher gravity beer seems to be quite different. OK I'll add a third wort to the previous example, hopefully that'll clear up what I'm asking.

Wort 1 = 5kg total malt in 20L with 0.5% roast malt = 250g roast malt = Weak beer, darker beer

Wort 1.5 = 10kg total malt in 20L with 0.5% roast malt = 500g roast malt = Strong beer, lighter in colour than wort 1 despite there being twice as much roast malt

Wort 2 = 10kg total malt in 20L 0.25% roast malt = 250g roast malt = Stronger beer, lighter beer than wort 1.5

Wort 1 and wort 1.5 have the same % of roast malt, but wort 1.5 will be much lighter than wort 1 even though there's twice as much roast malt. Wort 1.5 is what I'm trying to understand as the percentage of roast is the same but the colour will be different.

Sorry for the long posts guys but I think I'm close to understanding this.

Thanks for the patience,

James

The colour will be different because it is diluted. Im grateful you don't take offence, as i think i may have been a bit rude. I apologise if i was. It's also hard because a "double" beer is almost never "double'' the strength, IBU's, or colour.

Cheers, and thankyou again for not shooting me haha

 

[Ronin]

The colour will be different because it is diluted. Im grateful you don't take offence, as i think i may have been a bit rude. I apologise if i was. It's also hard because a "double" beer is almost never "double'' the strength, IBU's, or colour.

Cheers, and thankyou again for not shooting me haha

How is it diluted? It's in the same volume of water. So are you saying it's diluted with other malts? In the lab I work in, if we say we diluted a compound, a solvent of some description has been added to lessen the concentration. Nothing is added here except more malt. How can that dilute the colour?

Just using you're first post as an example

"Base malt with .5% black is going to be much lighter than base malt with 5% black"

In the case of the three different grists i've given in the last post, worts 1 and 1.5 have the same %'s of roast, but 1.5 is lighter. Let me put it another way, and I think this is where I'm coming up against a brick wall.

Say I halve the volume rather than double the grain. But I do this by leaving the kettle on the burner for too long and my evaporation is too great. Instead of 20L of stout at 1.050, I get 10L of RIS at 1.100. Are you telling me that the RIS will be lighter in colour than the stout? It's evaporation. That concentrates solutions, it doesn't dilute them.

And if the RIS in the above example is going to be darker because of the extra water that evaporated, then surely sparging for longer and increasing the boil time on a bigger beer should solve the colour issue. Just plan a beer as if you were brewing 40L of beer then evaporate it until it is at 20...

I can sort of understand aiming for 20L of a big beer and leaving a lot of sugars and colour compounds in the mash tun. This is where partigyle brewing comes in? Those colour compounds which should be in the first, bigger beer get left behind for a second smaller beer. But if I do what I've described above and sparge like I was making 40L then evaporate it to 20, I should have 20L of the proper colour beer.

Am I looking at things the wrong way here?

James

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to mention that when I use the word double, all I mean is doubling the staring gravity , taking into account the lower efficiency in stronger beers. I know about hop utilisation etc. The main thing I'm talking about here is balancing the malts and understanding why the colour changes.

 

[mje1980]

How is it diluted? It's in the same volume of water. So are you saying it's diluted with other malts? In the lab I work in, if we say we diluted a compound, a solvent of some description has been added to lessen the concentration. Nothing is added here except more malt. How can that dilute the colour?

Just using you're first post as an example

"Base malt with .5% black is going to be much lighter than base malt with 5% black"

In the case of the three different grists i've given in the last post, worts 1 and 1.5 have the same %'s of roast, but 1.5 is lighter. Let me put it another way, and I think this is where I'm coming up against a brick wall.

Say I halve the volume rather than double the grain. But I do this by leaving the kettle on the burner for too long and my evaporation is too great. Instead of 20L of stout at 1.050, I get 10L of RIS at 1.100. Are you telling me that the RIS will be lighter in colour than the stout? It's evaporation. That concentrates solutions, it doesn't dilute them.

And if the RIS in the above example is going to be darker because of the extra water that evaporated, then surely sparging for longer and increasing the boil time on a bigger beer should solve the colour issue. Just plan a beer as if you were brewing 40L of beer then evaporate it until it is at 20...

I can sort of understand aiming for 20L of a big beer and leaving a lot of sugars and colour compounds in the mash tun. This is where partigyle brewing comes in? Those colour compounds which should be in the first, bigger beer get left behind for a second smaller beer. But if I do what I've described above and sparge like I was making 40L then evaporate it to 20, I should have 20L of the proper colour beer.

Am I looking at things the wrong way here?

James

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to mention that when I use the word double, all I mean is doubling the staring gravity , taking into account the lower efficiency in stronger beers. I know about hop utilisation etc. The main thing I'm talking about here is balancing the malts and understanding why the colour changes.

Aha, boiling the wort right down, eg caramelisation will darken the wort, because there's less water, more wort ( ie sugars ). That is different to just brewing a stronger beer, but with the same boil time etc. I can't comment on partigyle brewing, never done it. If you do like you said ( 40 litres boiled down to 20 ), hop calculations will be quite difficult i would imagine. You shouldn't have efficiency problems just because it's a high alc beer, depending on your system. Colour changes, im going purely on volume so i have misundertood/read your first posts, sorry.

 

[Kai]

With regard to colour in a bigger stout, as far as I can see the only reason you would get a lighter colour in a higher OG beer with the same amount of roast malt as a lower OG is because of the lower efficiencies involved in a bigger beer. Any differences in extraction efficiency between sugars and colour compounds doesn't matter; if your efficiency is dropping by x% then you're going to get less colour from the roast malt in your final beer. For example, imagine you're making a partigyle... the small beer will be stealing a fair chunk of colour from the larger; they will not be equally black.

I also think roast character does fade over time. An intense roast barley character in a young beer will definitely be more subdued in an older beer than a younger. So a heavy dark malt load in a big beer might be too acrid or roasty while the beer is young, but will fade to a more relaxed level when the beer matures... which the high ABV allows it to do. However, I'd definitely agree that crystal or munich style malts should be kept to a minimum given the high load of base malt.

 

[Ronin]

Aha, boiling the wort right down, eg caramelisation will darken the wort, because there's less water, more wort ( ie sugars ). That is different to just brewing a stronger beer, but with the same boil time etc. I can't comment on partigyle brewing, never done it. If you do like you said ( 40 litres boiled down to 20 ), hop calculations will be quite difficult i would imagine. You shouldn't have efficiency problems just because it's a high alc beer, depending on your system. Colour changes, im going purely on volume so i have misundertood/read your first posts, sorry.

No worries, thanks for helping me try to understand this concept.

 

[Ronin]

With regard to colour in a bigger stout, as far as I can see the only reason you would get a lighter colour in a higher OG beer with the same amount of roast malt as a lower OG is because of the lower efficiencies involved in a bigger beer. Any differences in extraction efficiency between sugars and colour compounds doesn't matter; if your efficiency is dropping by x% then you're going to get less colour from the roast malt in your final beer. For example, imagine you're making a partigyle... the small beer will be stealing a fair chunk of colour from the larger; they will not be equally black.

I also think roast character does fade over time. An intense roast barley character in a young beer will definitely be more subdued in an older beer than a younger. So a heavy dark malt load in a big beer might be too acrid or roasty while the beer is young, but will fade to a more relaxed level when the beer matures... which the high ABV allows it to do. However, I'd definitely agree that crystal or munich style malts should be kept to a minimum given the high load of base malt.

Thanks Kai, i think that's what I was trying to understand. I just wasn't sure why the colour would be different, but if you're leaving some behind in the mash tun that explains where it the colour goes.

I'm assuming there's no way to tell how much colour is left behind.

And what you happen if I increased the overall malt to take into account the lowered efficiency of extraction of a higher gravity beer? Would that partly offset leaving some colour/sugars behind in the mash tun? Say for a 1.045 beer I use 75% brewhouse efficiency, but to get a 1.100 beer I use 60% efficiency, shouldn't that increase everything to the point where the lack of roast colour/flavour isn't as obvious?

James