Cruelty Free West Expo

[DU99]

i think this subject has gone way off topic.. :icon_vomit: :icon_offtopic:

 

[Effect]

do vegans and vegatarians ever think how much habitat would have to be destroyed to make farmland and whole species would dissapear if we all did as they say and leave the poor animals alone?
im a well at peace meat eater and happy to be so. and funnily enough also against animal cruelty,the two things need not be mutually exclusive.

Are you sure you aren't Malted in disguise?

If not, then please explain to me which part of the 'animal getting killed' isn't cruel...I find it hard to get my head around. We have a friend that works in a vet, as she loves animals. She has animal rights tattooed on her wrist...what I can't understand is if she loves animals so much and stands up for their rights, then why does she eat meat...weird hey?

Man beats his dog to death - bad...goes to court, gets a fine. Man beats human to death - bad...goes to court, gets jail time. Interesting to see on the crime channel that several serial killers and murders etc used to torture animals first...however, if you artificially inseminate a cow so that she has a calf, you kill that calf for veal, use the rennet to make cheese, and the milk that the mother makes for her now dead calf gets sold to us...and when she (the mother cow) gets to a certain age where she doesn't produce her quota of milk per calf born...well, dog food for you daisy...and that is not cruel. It's hard to really make sense of the statement 'meat eating and animal cruelty need not be mutually exclusive'.

But milk and steak has to be meant for us...otherwise we wouldn't have heart attacks pincer teeth that only could be so we can eat meat...

Cheers
Phil

 

[peaky]

 

[Ronin]

We are in fact well adapted to eating meat

Yep we can eat meat, we are not however perfectly adapted to eat meat. Our intestines are too long and teeth aren't adapted to hunting animals. Can we eat meat? Yes, obviously. Do we have to eat meat? Not really, there's a lot of cultures out there that don't, and are perfectly healthy.

I'd say that the problem with the modern diet isn't lack of consumption of meat (or whatever other differences from our pre-agricultural history), it's the disconnection between the source of our food and it's consumption. It's processing, it's additives. I personally think that unless you are capable of killing an animal and dressing the carcass, you shouldn't be eating it. There are heaps of people out there who could do that. There are just as many who would be horrified.

The argument about the cost of growing a kilo of meat is a bit of a furphy - it's put forward as a reason for meat being "bad". Not so, it's a product of the fact that agriculture has enabled the population to explode to its current levels and thus we should divert resources away from meat. Not because it's bad, but that by doing so we can support ever increasing populations.
So when we get to 15 billion I bet the cry will be about the cost of growing a kilo of spuds. So why not produce food in factories - hey let's call it soylent green :icon_cheers:

Calling the fact a furphy implies the figures are wrong. They aren't the facts are the facts. 16 kg of grain to make what a family would probably eat in a night or two. 16kg of grain would feed a family for a month, if not more. It's not about right or wrong, it's an argument about sustainability, and that was the context in which the figure was quoted in this thread.

When we get to 15 billion we probably will be complaining about the cost of potatoes, but eating meat will have become prohibitively expensive a long time before then.

I personally have no problem with the consumption of meat, as long as that person is aware of (and care about) where the meat comes from, how it's raised and how it's killed. Meat doesn't come from a packet from coles.

I know it's OT, but it is an interesting discussion.

James

 

[Effect]

16 kg of grain to make what a family would probably eat in a night or two. 16kg of grain would feed a family for a month, if not more.

16 kg of grain would fill up 3-4 kegs of mine :lol:

 

[Brown_hound]

Pennywise!!!!

You've created a monster!!!

 

[DUANNE]

I personally think that unless you are capable of killing an animal and dressing the carcass, you shouldn't be eating it.

I personally have no problem with the consumption of meat, as long as that person is aware of (and care about) where the meat comes from, how it's raised and how it's killed. Meat doesn't come from a packet from coles.

I know it's OT, but it is an interesting discussion.

James

i agree whole heartedly with these two points. i have had this discussion with a few poeple before when its been raised that i like to hunt and have no problem with raising my own animal for slaughter. its surprising how many meat eaters are horrified by the thought of this. to me if you raise an animal yourself,only then can you be sure of its humane treatment through its life. and a hunted animal has lived wild and free as it should have and with one good shot is dead before it knows what has happened. if you are buying meat from coles you are still just as responsible for the animals death as if you pulled the trigger yourself imo.only instead of a humanely raised animal youve killed a feed lot animal thats lived in stress and most likely rough conditions all its life only to be packed on a truck and transported to a abbotoir where it waits in line to be killed while watching and hearing its herd mates death before it.thats why if i can when buying meat get the free range grass fed stuff.

 

[Brown_hound]

This is indeed hearty, well thought out discussion.. I'd love to take part too...

But maybe this is a little OT?

Maybe we should start a thread in Off topic?


Pennywise has set up this thread in good faith for his wife for what is apparently a good cause...


Purpose and intent has been lost in a sea of left vs right...

 

[manticle]

Manticle, you are a very helpful chap but I am sorry I have to admit that I did kinda expect a response to this from you... (no disrespect intended; you've taken the bat for quite a few issues throughout this forum). Yes I think too much and most times talk (type) too much also.
You would realise the importance of education and being educated, it was my aim to make others think a bit more about it (the first link in the OP is to a group who espouse education in regards to the sorts of issues I raised). It was a long winded way to say, as a beer community we should not be so quick to jump on board with such claims as cruelty free beer (and in a rambling way I tried to explain why not).

If everyone did whatever they wanted, however they wanted - that wouldn't necessarily make it right. Let us be careful about what claims are made in relation to our precious beer.

Nothing wrong with thinking or having an opinion or educating yourself. I agree wholeheartedly. I also have various opinions on humans and meat eating.

However this was a thread that at its simplest was advertising a small local event which may have some relevance to brewers. Now it's a debate on the ethics of various diets.

I'm a bit sick of internet shitfights no matter how noble the motivations behind them may be.

Another analogy - your wife/friend/brother advertises here that they are involved in the local primary school fete. She's running the sausage sizzle and there's a homebrewed beer and sausage pairing - brewers here can be a part of it. Vegan gets on, writes about energy consumption, ethics of meat consumption, your carbon footprint cooking the sausages etc, etc, etc. Do they have a point? maybe.

Is it welcome in that context?

Long cry from me saying everyone should do whatever they want.

 

[Brown_hound]

Nothing wrong with thinking or having an opinion or educating yourself. I agree wholeheartedly. I also have various opinions on humans and meat eating.

However this was a thread that at its simplest was advertising a small local event which may have some relevance to brewers. Now it's a debate on the ethics of various diets.

I'm a bit sick of internet shitfights no matter how noble the motivations behind them may be.

Another analogy - your wife/friend/brother advertises here that they are involved in the local primary school fete. She's running the sausage sizzle and there's a homebrewed beer and sausage pairing - brewers here can be a part of it. Vegan gets on, writes about energy consumption, ethics of meat consumption, your carbon footprint cooking the sausages etc, etc, etc. Do they have a point? maybe.

Is it welcome in that context?

Long cry from me saying everyone should do whatever they want.

+lots...

Look back through the posts for the purpose this thread was intended... A cause whether worthy or not, yet a cause which is somebody's choice...

Don't approve? Ignore..

Approve? Help Pennywise's wife out..

Wanna chat? Open a new thread!

 

[schooey]

Manticle, you are a very helpful chap but I am sorry I have to admit that I did kinda expect a response to this from you...

Heh! why the hell wouldn't you? He responds to everything...

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

This is indeed hearty, well thought out discussion.. I'd love to take part too...

But maybe this is a little OT?

Maybe we should start a thread in Off topic?


Pennywise has set up this thread in good faith for his wife for what is apparently a good cause...


Purpose and intent has been lost in a sea of left vs right...

Has drifted a little OT, but its still fun. not a shitfight by a long way, just some civil chit chat. Isn't this kind of discussion the kind of thing the OPs missus' event is designed to start?

to bring it a little more on topic, I wonder where and how inisglass (or Irish Moss, for that matter) were first discovered as clarifying agents..... neither seaweed nor swimbladder would have been things I would have thought to add to beer....

 

[DU99]

Nice to see some sense prevail finally

 

[WildaYeast]

I'm tempted to label this OT, but given how wide the envelope has stretched, this really fits right in. This is offered in the spirit of additional thought stimulation, for those who are interested.

I did do the vego thing a long time back, partially for health and partially ethics, but ended up deciding health was better served by moderation and my use of leather, etc. made the ethical stance questionable. Was keen on fish for getting to at least live a wild life, but even those are now frequently farmed...

Recently, I came across some really interesting thinking on the meat issue, derived from work by Vaclav Smil. I've barely scratched the surface of his work, which is quite impressive from a glance.

Part of his work was to look at the planetary implications of population growth and increased meat consumption (per captia consumption has accelerated steeply).

The thought that sucked me in -- not sure if this was from him or based on his work; haven't been able to find a direct quote -- goes something like this:

Ten thousand years ago, the whole of humanity and our domesticated animals (cows, sheep, pigs, dogs, cats, etc.) accounted for just 0.1 percent of Earth's total mammalian biomass. Today, that figure is 98 percent.

You can take that thought quite a few places. To me, it was a totally staggering paradigm shift.

Vaclav's bibliography is here for anyone who's interested. One of the papers I've been digesting that gets into the planetary of the meat diet is:

Smil, V. 2002. Eating meat: evolution, patterns, and consequences. Population and Development Review 28:599-639.

It's accessible from the link above, under 2002.

 

[schooey]

Are you sure you aren't Malted in disguise?

If not, then please explain to me which part of the 'animal getting killed' isn't cruel...I find it hard to get my head around. We have a friend that works in a vet, as she loves animals. She has animal rights tattooed on her wrist...what I can't understand is if she loves animals so much and stands up for their rights, then why does she eat meat...weird hey?

Man beats his dog to death - bad...goes to court, gets a fine. Man beats human to death - bad...goes to court, gets jail time. Interesting to see on the crime channel that several serial killers and murders etc used to torture animals first...however, if you artificially inseminate a cow so that she has a calf, you kill that calf for veal, use the rennet to make cheese, and the milk that the mother makes for her now dead calf gets sold to us...and when she (the mother cow) gets to a certain age where she doesn't produce her quota of milk per calf born...well, dog food for you daisy...and that is not cruel. It's hard to really make sense of the statement 'meat eating and animal cruelty need not be mutually exclusive'.

But milk and steak has to be meant for us...otherwise we wouldn't have heart attacks pincer teeth that only could be so we can eat meat...

Cheers
Phil

So, by your logic, we should go on a crusade to stop all those other animals eating animals too? Take all the moral high ground you like, dude, but mother nature always wins in the end... They don't call it a food chain for nothing

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=38354&st=0

 

[Brown_hound]

Who wants thread rights?

 

[Brown_hound]

I reckon Pennywise deserves it to be honest after putting up with this shit...

 

[WildaYeast]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...=38354&st=0

Classic :lol:

 

[manticle]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=51106