Cruelty Free West Expo

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Pennywise

Brewin' Beer for Crazy Clowns & Juggalo's
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Hi guys and gals, I'm posting this on behalf of my loverly better half who runs Caroline Springs Animal Welfare Network She has secured a spot to hold some stalls at the Melton Shire Business Expo in October this year, and has asked me to put out the word for any brewers wanting to showcase some of their cruelty free beers. Obviously the whole thing isn't just about beer, but it would be good for any cruelty free breweries to show off their goods as well Here'sa link to the expressions of interest page, please pass it on to those you think might be interested in holding a stall. Would be good to get a few of our fine boutiqe brewers a bit more recognition in the cruelty free scene as well.
Thanks, PW
 
Awesome initiative, and good to raise the issue of animal derived finings to the general public.

I'll take my beer without bones and hoofs or fish swim-bladders, thanks.
 
I know there is a slight anti"+1" sentiment at the moment, but.....


+1. Great idea and I hope the stall(s) gets plenty of support!
 
Hi guys and gals, I'm posting this on behalf of my loverly better half who runs Caroline Springs Animal Welfare Network She has secured a spot to hold some stalls at the Melton Shire Business Expo in October this year, and has asked me to put out the word for any brewers wanting to showcase some of their cruelty free beers. Obviously the whole thing isn't just about beer, but it would be good for any cruelty free breweries to show off their goods as well Here'sa link to the expressions of interest page, please pass it on to those you think might be interested in holding a stall. Would be good to get a few of our fine boutiqe brewers a bit more recognition in the cruelty free scene as well.
Thanks, PW

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is cruelty free beer? Other than not using Isinglass what else is involved? Malt, water, yeast and hops... no animal products there.

By the way the expressions of interest link didn't work for me.
 
Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is cruelty free beer? Other than not using Isinglass what else is involved? Malt, water, yeast and hops... no animal products there.

By the way the expressions of interest link didn't work for me.

Best to ask my other half on that one mate but as far as I'm aware that's it, well, there's a few different ways they filter/clear beer but it's basically the same I think. Isinglass, fish bone ash or something, geletin from cow hoofs. There's percectly good ways to clear beer with out animal products, and we all know that :icon_cheers:

Edit: No animal product here either :super:
 
and can you be sure that no animals or bugs were harmed in the production of your malt or hops?
 
A bit of a long circular rant here (I stress it is not a personal attack; it is not intended to be offensive):

I am not comfortable with beer being marketed as cruelty free. "The beer approved by PETA" - no thank you.

If we weren't meant to eat animals, how come they're made of meat?

I can not say that I agree with vegetarianism or veganism myself. I know people who have trouble digesting meat; sounds logical to me that they should consider other things in their diet. As a personal dietary choice for others it is probably ok, it is just not for me. I do however support animal anti-cruelty and not unduly causing them distress but I do not equate this to not eating them. I equate this to sustainable and ethical production that follows best practice and animal stress minimisation. I also think that if you're going to harvest a resource that you have a responsibility to utilise it as fully as possible. So isn't it then sensible to use a bit of hoof or a bit of bone in your beer? That is better utilisation of the entire 'product'.

marksfish makes an interesting point too. Can you be sure that the malt is produced organically? No fertilisers, no pesticides, no herbicides that may harm soil microbes, soil fauna, birds and other critters?
What about the papers used in labelling - are they from recycled sources that do not acid bleach?
Are the glass bottles from recycled sources?
How green is your beer, really? Lets just say it is cruelty free. Tell you what, I had a cruelty free steak on the bbq last night.

Here's some more food for thought: What is a good PETA person supposed to wear? Cotton? I wouldn't imagine it would be responsible to do so: Cotton: one of the 'dirtiest' production systems in the world. Despite the ridiculous amounts of herbicides and pesticides used (many of which are systemic and can affect the whole food chain, sterilise the soil, leach into waterways etc) (did you know it is common practice to spray the entire cotton crop with herbicide to kill it just to make sure it all ripens at the same time for more efficient harvesting?) it has a very high water use (so lets not eat rice either because growing it is an inefficient use of water too). Maybe they should wear woollen clothes? Surely it would not be responsible to harm a sheep to remove its wool? Lets not start on the mulesing debate. Lets just say that cutting the wool off them could upset them and a hardcore vegan wouldn't stress them like that. Maybe they should wear sythetic materials, polymers etc of petro chemcial origin? Surely not! But surely they will drive a car to attend a protest.

Maybe we could say, well what am I to wear, or ok maybe we can upset sheep a little bit to get their wool, so long as we don't hurt them? How much 'upset' are we prepared to accept? What if we could end their life in a humane, quick and clean way so that they didn't know it was coming nor were they suffering or hurt for a period of time? Surely that would be ok wouldn't it? Or should they be left in a paddock to die naturally of old age? In that case they will probably be in severe pain for a long period of time because they are malnurished because their teeth have worn down so much they can't effectively feed or maybe they will bleed to death as predators eat them from their rear end in or through their soft bellies. There is nothing peaceful nor tranquil that comes to an animal dying from old age, it is more humane to end their suffering when they get old. Let's just do it a bit earlier and respect the animal by recycling it, reduce wastage of it, and reusing it - preferably over my BBQ.

Please feel free to pass along these comments to your other half.
Ok so am I going overboard? Probably. Am I being a tool? Probably. Should I be wearing a flame suit? Probably. Green and cruelty free are probably not differentiated in John Q Public's mind. My point is, be careful bloke, calling beer cruelty free could be an arguable label. Cruel is quite an ambiguous term. Please don't muddy beer this way.
 
So don't enter a beer in then.

Not everything needs this kind of analysis - some people like to eat vegetables and tofu and drink finings free beer.

Some people don't.

Imagine if you advertised a beer competition and someone wrote a 500 word essay on why you shouldn't be using finings as a response.

Let people do what they want to do, however they want to do it. It's the Melton shire business expo, not a UN convention on the prevention of you eating lamb chops.
 
So don't enter a beer in then.

Not everything needs this kind of analysis - some people like to eat vegetables and tofu and drink finings free beer.

Some people don't.

Imagine if you advertised a beer competition and someone wrote a 500 word essay on why you shouldn't be using finings as a response.

Let people do what they want to do, however they want to do it. It's the Melton shire business expo, not a UN convention on the prevention of you eating lamb chops.

Manticle, you are a very helpful chap but I am sorry I have to admit that I did kinda expect a response to this from you... (no disrespect intended; you've taken the bat for quite a few issues throughout this forum). Yes I think too much and most times talk (type) too much also.
You would realise the importance of education and being educated, it was my aim to make others think a bit more about it (the first link in the OP is to a group who espouse education in regards to the sorts of issues I raised). It was a long winded way to say, as a beer community we should not be so quick to jump on board with such claims as cruelty free beer (and in a rambling way I tried to explain why not).

If everyone did whatever they wanted, however they wanted - that wouldn't necessarily make it right. Let us be careful about what claims are made in relation to our precious beer.
 
How green is your beer, really?


Bottled it today so pretty damn green....


Sorry... Someone had to. Thought it may as well be me..


It all boils down to a matter of choice...

Good on PW's wifey trying something within her beliefs from another angle..

PW, hope the day's a great success. Might create some new homebrewers out of it


No need to get a bee in our bonnets though, stick to your choices! That's why god gave us a brain/rifles/lettuce.
 
I think you have some really good and valid points Malted, you've obviously thought the issue through for yourself and are comfortable with your resolutions which is more than many people ever do.

I typed heaps and deleted most of it...ramblings about pragmatism, Lacanian post-structuralism and Mills' Utilitarianism.

I just wanted to make it clear that I have done my share of reading, thinking and thesis writing and my support of this post wasn't me just waving some pom poms and mindlessly supporting a left-wing idea.
Cheers all. :icon_chickcheers:

Sorry to the South of Heaven Brewer for going (kind of) OT.
 
It's not a beer comp guys, if a business that wants to showcase their beers or more broadly their products, and it's cruelty free, then contact CSAWN. It's ok Malted no offence taken, your opinion doesn't mean much. Please don't drag this into a debate guys, otherwise mods, can you just delete the thread. Thanks.


While the thread is still here, any micro's that wanna get some press and you have cruelty free beers you can find contact details in the FB page I linked to
 
A bit of a long circular rant here (I stress it is not a personal attack; it is not intended to be offensive):

I am not comfortable with beer being marketed as cruelty free. "The beer approved by PETA" - no thank you.

If we weren't meant to eat animals, how come they're made of meat?

I can not say that I agree with vegetarianism or veganism myself. I know people who have trouble digesting meat; sounds logical to me that they should consider other things in their diet. As a personal dietary choice for others it is probably ok, it is just not for me. I do however support animal anti-cruelty and not unduly causing them distress but I do not equate this to not eating them. I equate this to sustainable and ethical production that follows best practice and animal stress minimisation. I also think that if you're going to harvest a resource that you have a responsibility to utilise it as fully as possible. So isn't it then sensible to use a bit of hoof or a bit of bone in your beer? That is better utilisation of the entire 'product'.

marksfish makes an interesting point too. Can you be sure that the malt is produced organically? No fertilisers, no pesticides, no herbicides that may harm soil microbes, soil fauna, birds and other critters?
What about the papers used in labelling - are they from recycled sources that do not acid bleach?
Are the glass bottles from recycled sources?
How green is your beer, really? Lets just say it is cruelty free. Tell you what, I had a cruelty free steak on the bbq last night.

Here's some more food for thought: What is a good PETA person supposed to wear? Cotton? I wouldn't imagine it would be responsible to do so: Cotton: one of the 'dirtiest' production systems in the world. Despite the ridiculous amounts of herbicides and pesticides used (many of which are systemic and can affect the whole food chain, sterilise the soil, leach into waterways etc) (did you know it is common practice to spray the entire cotton crop with herbicide to kill it just to make sure it all ripens at the same time for more efficient harvesting?) it has a very high water use (so lets not eat rice either because growing it is an inefficient use of water too). Maybe they should wear woollen clothes? Surely it would not be responsible to harm a sheep to remove its wool? Lets not start on the mulesing debate. Lets just say that cutting the wool off them could upset them and a hardcore vegan wouldn't stress them like that. Maybe they should wear sythetic materials, polymers etc of petro chemcial origin? Surely not! But surely they will drive a car to attend a protest.

Maybe we could say, well what am I to wear, or ok maybe we can upset sheep a little bit to get their wool, so long as we don't hurt them? How much 'upset' are we prepared to accept? What if we could end their life in a humane, quick and clean way so that they didn't know it was coming nor were they suffering or hurt for a period of time? Surely that would be ok wouldn't it? Or should they be left in a paddock to die naturally of old age? In that case they will probably be in severe pain for a long period of time because they are malnurished because their teeth have worn down so much they can't effectively feed or maybe they will bleed to death as predators eat them from their rear end in or through their soft bellies. There is nothing peaceful nor tranquil that comes to an animal dying from old age, it is more humane to end their suffering when they get old. Let's just do it a bit earlier and respect the animal by recycling it, reduce wastage of it, and reusing it - preferably over my BBQ.

Please feel free to pass along these comments to your other half.
Ok so am I going overboard? Probably. Am I being a tool? Probably. Should I be wearing a flame suit? Probably. Green and cruelty free are probably not differentiated in John Q Public's mind. My point is, be careful bloke, calling beer cruelty free could be an arguable label. Cruel is quite an ambiguous term. Please don't muddy beer this way.


From reading this I don't think you have a very sound understanding of what veganism is and what cruelty free is either. Best to stick to talking beer...

Cheers
Phil
 
Gelatine is made from cow hides actually (and I have an email from a lass at Mckenzies / Wards). Same as my shoes. However, according to my new yeast book, yeast love to ferment at 30 degrees and bud ecstatically whenever possible but we don't let them do that - if I were a yeast cell in a brewery I'd be waving a placard. :rolleyes:
 
I am not comfortable with beer being marketed as cruelty free. "The beer approved by PETA" - no thank you.

Neither am I, but perhaps not for the same reasons as you. I think that buying into the cruelty-free fallacy can fool people into believing they can live in good conscious, when almost every aspect of our lives involves some sort of cruelty or exploitation of animals (both human or otherwise). it doesn't take a genius to realise that everything, from material products right through to abstracted concepts like sovereignty and human rights are completely contingent on violence.

I think that maybe it might be more politically useful to highlight that living in good conscious is pretty well impossible, even for the most thoroughly green, endreadlocked stinky vegan out there. Recognising that there isn't any way to be cruelty free enables more radical politics.

The flip side of this, of course, is a(pathetic) wankstains who just go on to say 'ooohhh its all too hard - better no change anything'.

If we weren't meant to eat animals, how come they're made of meat?

So are babies. the other, other white meat.

...post-structuralism...

you touched a chord with my inner uber-nerd there. Most of the animal rights based stuff I read bores me to tears (especially peter singer, tom regan and that mob....), but I really think the most incisive, interesting stuff written about animals comes from post-structuralists - the single best thing I've ever read about animals is here. but dense and wanky in sections, but overall I think it's ******* amazing.
 
Actually, unlikeable as Peter Singer is, at least he and his mob have fairly rational arguments about treatment of animals. However for every convert made by these people, at least ten people probably get put off veganism (in particular) as it increasingly seems to be the province of skinny pasty teenage girls of the "Like meat is like so gross like EEEWWWWW like like like" persuasion. I eat twice a week at a "vedic" style Indian cafe near my work and they are lacto-vegetarian with ghee, yogurt and paneer cheese for example. Their system is based on food that is obtained "gently" and if I lived in the Valley I reckon I'd give up cooking and just eat exclusively there as it's really tasty, healthy and sustaining stuff.
 
do vegans and vegatarians ever think how much habitat would have to be destroyed to make farmland and whole species would dissapear if we all did as they say and leave the poor animals alone?
im a well at peace meat eater and happy to be so. and funnily enough also against animal cruelty,the two things need not be mutually exclusive.
 
Actually, unlikeable as Peter Singer is, at least he and his mob have fairly rational arguments about treatment of animals. However for every convert made by these people, at least ten people probably get put off veganism (in particular) as it increasingly seems to be the province of skinny pasty teenage girls of the "Like meat is like so gross like EEEWWWWW like like like" persuasion. I eat twice a week at a "vedic" style Indian cafe near my work and they are lacto-vegetarian with ghee, yogurt and paneer cheese for example. Their system is based on food that is obtained "gently" and if I lived in the Valley I reckon I'd give up cooking and just eat exclusively there as it's really tasty, healthy and sustaining stuff.

point taken. Lots of people say that they 'converted' after reading Singer. Not sure what you mean by the skinny girls though - maybe if I ran into more of them I'd be convinced to become vegan (as long as they remain interested in a eating one certain type of special sausage...)


do vegans and vegatarians ever think how much habitat would have to be destroyed to make farmland and whole species would dissapear if we all did as they say and leave the poor animals alone?
im a well at peace meat eater and happy to be so. and funnily enough also against animal cruelty,the two things need not be mutually exclusive.

joking, right? you know it takes something like 16kg of grain to produce 1kg of meat, which also means a shit-load more grazing/feedstock growing land, more water, more fossil fuel etc. Plenty of studies out there for those who could be arsed to look.

I eat animals sometimes too, but I don't try to kid myself that it can be delivered cruelty free, or without significant environmental impact....


edit: Ronin beat me to it.....
 
better tell the orangatans that palm oil plantations are not kicking them out of there homes.look in any processed vegatarian foods at the supermarket theyl all be loaded with the stuff.
 
Vast areas of the planet are 'rangelands' which produce cattle, sheep, kangaroos, deer etc and cannot be adapted to arable farming because there just isn't the rainfall. So they contribute a lot of food to the World's supply.
We are in fact well adapted to eating meat - if you take Homo Erectus -> Homo Sapiens to be a continuum then for the last two million years we have been happily eating whatever we can catch and kill, gather off a bush or a tree or dig out of the ground with a stick. It's only been the last nine thousand years that agriculture has been around and it has not been of universal benefit because it has condemned billions of people to an unhealthy diet of basically grains, beans and potatoes that we didn't eat for most of our pre-agricultural history. We forget this in Australia as we have a huge variety of food, but tell that to a starving family in Darfur etc. We are genetically virtually identical to our pre agricultural ancestors and to a degree with modern foods we are trying to run a "diesel" body off petrol. The only real genetic mutation was the ability of some populations but not all to digest milk after childhood.

The argument about the cost of growing a kilo of meat is a bit of a furphy - it's put forward as a reason for meat being "bad". Not so, it's a product of the fact that agriculture has enabled the population to explode to its current levels and thus we should divert resources away from meat. Not because it's bad, but that by doing so we can support ever increasing populations.
So when we get to 15 billion I bet the cry will be about the cost of growing a kilo of spuds. So why not produce food in factories - hey let's call it soylent green :icon_cheers:
 

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