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The7

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Hi folks, after 4 AGs I am confident that I have nailed the basics of the process. which was far easier than I anticipated. However, deciding what grains to use to achieve desired flavour and colour of the beer has not come to me as natually as I had hoped. I guess there are just so many variables that change the outcome in big ways. I am finding at this stage of brewing the hardest thing is isolating what malts add a certain flavour or character to the beer. I have done a lot of single hop brews to determine what flavour and aroma they have, but its a little harder with malt. any advise?

cheers

Ben
 
When i started in AG, I tried to choose something I figured I liked with about 4 types of grain, and for the next few brews I'd swap something out, and replace it with another. the hardest part was keeping a few bottles to compare it with ;)
 
Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels is a good start. Taste beers from other brewers and ask for the recipe. Brew a lot. Sorry to say, but experience plays a big role. A good palate helps too. Taste your malt, even base malt, as those same flavours do come out in the finished product.
 
Designing Great BeersBrew a lot. Sorry to say, but experience plays a big role. A good palate helps too. Taste your malt, even base malt, as those same flavours do come out in the finished product.

I couldnt agree more. there could never be a day where a good brewer doesnt learn something new. I guess I'm after help putting together a good malt bill and knowing why a patricular malt is included
 
I found having a browse through a list of the characteristics of different malts to be helpful. One OK list is here. There are also ones with all the main brewing software which gives some info on what you can expect to get out of the different varieties and using some software is also very helpful in terms of getting a recipe together IMO. Other than that, newguy's suggestions are spot on.
 
The other way you can go about it is the same as the single hop experiments you say you did, but with single malts. Just do small batches, say to 2L in the fermenter (2.25L softdrink bottles with balloons on top ;) ) on the stovetop, and give it a single hop that you are familiar with to 50%bugu, so you can get the most out of the malt character without the hop interfering too much. Its a full day of brewing fun, dirtying every pot in the house, but it's an interesting exersize.
 
A fantastic question!

Just the recognition that this is something worth researching and learning will make you a fantastic brewer in the end.

I have always been a big believer that recipe formulation has a lot to do with a great beer. mixed with controlled fermentation, well treated wort during production and fresh ingredients, its something to strive to get right.

The key word is "BALLANCE"!

print that word out in big bold letters and hang it up where you brew! make it your new moto!

To achieve it time after time in your beers will take time and experience. Im with newguy too. taste your malts........ all of them. You will get a feel for what effect they will have on the beer. Chew some crystal malt and then some amber malt. You will soon taste the difference between the sweet of the crystal and the dry buiskety maltiness of the amber.

As said..... your base malts will differ too, taste them. pilsner malt will be sweeter and cleaner, ale malts more biskety. Munich malts have a toasty malt character.

I have always tasted my grain when brewing, or if im board and feel like comparing malts. I have developed a bit of a memory for what they taste like in my head now and a bit like food, you get to know what tastes good with what.

There are some basic rules for base malts that you can follow for a start and then let experience and your taste buda guide you.

base malts......... obvious..... use as much as you want.
Munich malts........ Using 1 or 2% is a waste of time. Munich 1 can be used as a base malt and will make a really toasty bready sweetly malty beer. ITs great in most ales at 10 to 20% grist to increase the malt profile of the beer. Munich 2 is the same but a bit darker so use 30% less of it as you would minich 1.

Caramalts are a light crystal type malt that add a sweet honey like maltiness to the beer. Use them up to 10 in light lagers and ales to boost the malt profile and add head retention.

Cryatal malts are sweet and malty. there are 3 main groups...... l

light to standard, 100 to 150 EBC, use at around 6 or 8 % in a porter of english bitter, can use more can use less.... up to your tastes.
dark, 250 EBC, deep crystal flavour, because its darker, use less that the lighter stuff.
Caraaroma, german dark crystal...... 450 ebc i think. use to a few % for deep dark fruit flavours and a red hue to the beer.
Amber and brown malts. These are drier and toastier. They offer no real sweetness and should be used with restraint. I recomend you use on or the other in a beer and keep it at 1 or 2 % Its great when mixed with a good dose of crystal malt to ballance the sweetness of the crystal. There's that word :)
Dark malts. the darker they get the less you need. I have a general rule with brewing stout....... keep the dark roast malts under 10% or grist.
For a porter, use around 8% crystal, 5% chocolate and 1% black malt with a good ale malt as the base. See the ballance? the sweet of the crystal will ballance the dry roast of the choc and black malts.
another good trick if you have no ale malt is to use 50/50 pilsner malt/Munich malt. Great base for a porter or stout.

There are so many malts......... wheat malts, smoked malts, things like maize, flaked barley, carapils, the list is a long one but with time you will work it out.

If you ever want confirmation of amounts in a recipe, just post them of PM me if you want.

A work mate of mine was brewing a beer from a recipe in a book. HE asked me what i thought of the recipe and as it was basicly just base ale malt and lots of roast barley and black malt, i said it would be harsh roasty and a bit astringent.

He brewed it anyway and i was right!. It needed a good 8 to 10% 145 EBC crystal to add a weetness that would hold the roast up in the beer.

Think of it like lemonade....... lots of lemmon on its own will be yuck but add some sugar to ballance the sour and what have you got. YUM!

Sorry for the rant but i am quite passionate about this aspect of brewing.

cheers
 
A fantastic question!

Just the recognition that this is something worth researching and learning will make you a fantastic brewer in the end.

I have always been a big believer that recipe formulation has a lot to do with a great beer. mixed with controlled fermentation, well treated wort during production and fresh ingredients, its something to strive to get right.

The key word is "BALLANCE"!

print that word out in big bold letters and hang it up where you brew! make it your new moto!

To achieve it time after time in your beers will take time and experience. Im with newguy too. taste your malts........ all of them. You will get a feel for what effect they will have on the beer. Chew some crystal malt and then some amber malt. You will soon taste the difference between the sweet of the crystal and the dry buiskety maltiness of the amber.

As said..... your base malts will differ too, taste them. pilsner malt will be sweeter and cleaner, ale malts more biskety. Munich malts have a toasty malt character.

I have always tasted my grain when brewing, or if im board and feel like comparing malts. I have developed a bit of a memory for what they taste like in my head now and a bit like food, you get to know what tastes good with what.

There are some basic rules for base malts that you can follow for a start and then let experience and your taste buda guide you.

base malts......... obvious..... use as much as you want.
Munich malts........ Using 1 or 2% is a waste of time. Munich 1 can be used as a base malt and will make a really toasty bready sweetly malty beer. ITs great in most ales at 10 to 20% grist to increase the malt profile of the beer. Munich 2 is the same but a bit darker so use 30% less of it as you would minich 1.

Caramalts are a light crystal type malt that add a sweet honey like maltiness to the beer. Use them up to 10 in light lagers and ales to boost the malt profile and add head retention.

Cryatal malts are sweet and malty. there are 3 main groups...... l

light to standard, 100 to 150 EBC, use at around 6 or 8 % in a porter of english bitter, can use more can use less.... up to your tastes.
dark, 250 EBC, deep crystal flavour, because its darker, use less that the lighter stuff.
Caraaroma, german dark crystal...... 450 ebc i think. use to a few % for deep dark fruit flavours and a red hue to the beer.
Amber and brown malts. These are drier and toastier. They offer no real sweetness and should be used with restraint. I recomend you use on or the other in a beer and keep it at 1 or 2 % Its great when mixed with a good dose of crystal malt to ballance the sweetness of the crystal. There's that word :)
Dark malts. the darker they get the less you need. I have a general rule with brewing stout....... keep the dark roast malts under 10% or grist.
For a porter, use around 8% crystal, 5% chocolate and 1% black malt with a good ale malt as the base. See the ballance? the sweet of the crystal will ballance the dry roast of the choc and black malts.
another good trick if you have no ale malt is to use 50/50 pilsner malt/Munich malt. Great base for a porter or stout.

There are so many malts......... wheat malts, smoked malts, things like maize, flaked barley, carapils, the list is a long one but with time you will work it out.

If you ever want confirmation of amounts in a recipe, just post them of PM me if you want.

A work mate of mine was brewing a beer from a recipe in a book. HE asked me what i thought of the recipe and as it was basicly just base ale malt and lots of roast barley and black malt, i said it would be harsh roasty and a bit astringent.

He brewed it anyway and i was right!. It needed a good 8 to 10% 145 EBC crystal to add a weetness that would hold the roast up in the beer.

Think of it like lemonade....... lots of lemmon on its own will be yuck but add some sugar to ballance the sour and what have you got. YUM!

Sorry for the rant but i am quite passionate about this aspect of brewing.

cheers
who lit your tampon, honey?

sorry to be belligerent on this, but if you're gonna tell someone to print a word, you should run it through a web dictionary.
Balance is spelled thus-ly. :p

Is it possible that your mate brewed a Mild ale, rather than a sweeter Ordinary bitter? Sounds like a session beer that needs a bit of a tangy sourness from acetobacter (heaven forbid). A thread in the stale porter recreation?

Seth out :chug:
 
Ahhhh constructive as usual mate

:huh: :rolleyes:
 
Top post Tony, you gave The7 heaps of good info there, last I looked this was a HB forum, not a literature guild, Les, pull your head in mate. There seems to be a proliferation of wankers here in recent times, please don't join their ranks. The7, the best advice I can give is research your recipes, if you want to make a particular style, google it and look at how others make it, havea listen to The Jamil Show podcasts and learn all you can about the particular style of beer you want to brew. It is not really hard.

cheers

Browndog
 
good info from tony there. When I create recipes I tend to have a read of what others have done, and have a look in the styles/ingredients threads, then i'll put something together from that, usually changing some things based on my previous beers & experience, also what *I* want the beer to be (thats important!). One of my problems is I have yet to setting on an "ideal" say, grain bill for an APA etc - because every time I brew one I change too many things... I guess more brews will fix this ;) In a year of AG brewing I have only brewed the same recipe twice once before. A year ago I was just starting - I remember reading these recipes with a % of this and an IBU of that and thinking " W T F!!"

occasionally I get silly ideas - sometimes they work out well, recently I brewed a beer with 100% wey smoked, not one of my better ideas. balance IS the key ! hehe :)
 
when i started out i brewed a lager with a couple % of amber malt because the malt specs said it lent a nice amber hue to the beer.

Big mistake. The dry roastiness of the amber malt made the lager harsh and .........well.......... yucky.

I remember pouring my dad a schooner and he spat it out. I then removed said keg from the fridge and upended over the drain.

I have chewed my grain from that day on

cheers
 
Good post tony, lots of good info. Just on the cara aroma, around 300-400EBC, adds a sweetness and mouthfeel, with lots of malt on the nose. Too much results in a syrup like feel. I would reccomend 5%, up it to 10% if you become a fan (like me. Its my #1 addition. Love the stuff. If I could make love to it, I would.)

And for those that get snippy at spelling errors........f'ck off. Run that through you're online dictionary. Or how about pretentious? Did I spell that right?
Some people need to be headbutted. Seriously.
 
Settle down butters - note the emoticon in Seth's post.

The7 - great question, Tony - great answer.

I respond with a trick that helps me out when I am a bit stuck on recipe development. I heard it froma guest on one of the Brewing Networks Sunday shows.

The 100grain trick - think up a recipe, use all the advice you have been given in this thread. Now, break it back to percentages so maybe something like this Irish Red recipe

Pale Ale malt - 91%
JWM Dark Crystal - 3%
JWM Light Crystal - 3%
Roasted Braley - 3%

Now grab a little of your malt, and count out the number of grains of each that corresponds to the % in the recipe so, 91 grains of Pale and 3 grains each of the crystals and the roast barley.

Stick it in your mouth and chew it up.

This is going to give you a fair idea of how the flavours of the malt will meld together in the beer. With a bit of experience, you can translate what you are tasting in the 100 grains, into what you will get out of the beer at the end.

I dont like to chew up all that grain, so I do a similar thing with a steep. I take the 100 grains, grind them up in a blender, throw them in a coffee press with a bit of hot tap water and steep them for a minute or two. Then I press the press and drain the liquid off to a small pot or erlenmyer flask. Bring it to a boil for a few seconds and cool it down. The reason I bring it to the boil is I dont want any conversion of starch to sugar to happen.

Taste the resultant malt "tea" - because you will have not had any time for conversion to happen - the tea will not be too far away from the taste of your fermented wort. Any sweetness will be from the sugars in the crystal malt, which are unfermentable anyway, and the colour and flavour of the grains will still have come out in the steep. Its not the "same" as the beer will be - but once again, if you do it often enough, you can develop a feel for how the taste of the tea will relate to the taste of the finished beer. And its a hell of a lot faster than making test batches. Although you should do that too.

Dunno, I find it to be a useful tool for recipe development. Others will no doubt find it silly. But do at least taste everything - everything that goes in your beer. It helps a lot.

Thirsty
 
I hang my head in shame. :unsure: Excess alcohol dims my perception of humour in the written form.
Emoticon now noted, and upon reading Les' post in the cold light of day, the humourous intent is obvious.
Apologies to Les, and all concerned.
 
Another thing i like to do is run all my specialty grain through the mill seperatly to the base malts.

All my pils, ale or munich malts ect get cracked and anything darker is run through on its own into a seperate container.

I like to smell the grain combo after cracking it. even have a taste. I find this gives me a good feel for what combos work well and what effect different malts have.

after that it comes down to experience.

cheers

Edit: And yeah folks, calm down a bit. I think im the most teased person on here for my typing/spelling skills or lack there off but thats all good. Im a little fella with big shoulders :) Les and i are friends. I will drag him round the back of the dunnys next time i see him :p
 
Edit: And yeah folks, calm down a bit. I think im the most teased person on here for my typing/spelling skills or lack there off but thats all good. Im a little fella with big shoulders Les and i are friends. I will drag him round the back of the dunnys next time i see him

Yes, my appologies Les, amazing what three of four tripels can do to you, I did not notice your emoticon.

cheers

Browndog
 
Les and i are friends. I will drag him round the back of the dunnys next time i see him :p

:huh: This isn't another Queensland case swap thread is it ?
 
pull your head in mate. There seems to be a proliferation of wankers here in recent times, please don't join their ranks

:lol: Whooooo hooo I can just see you with nostrils flared BD

I know where your coming from mate just missed the mark a little
:lol:
 

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