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Coopers real ale batch

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DarrenHurst

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So onto brew #4, a Coopers real ale.
Day 1
1 x tin Coopers real ale
1/2 kg extra malt brewing sugar
1 kg brew enhancer 2
200ml molasses
25 grams Saaz hops steeped (left over from a Stella clone)
Boiled 3 litres spring water, EMBS and 1/2 the BE2 for 30 mins.
Got yeast going by mixing packet of tin yeast and half of a 7 gram packet of Tandeco bread yeast with tepid water and shook every 5 mins.
Mixed remaing EMBS in spring water in FV, strained hot mix on top.
Topped with cool spring water to 23 litres
Wort at 22°. Pitched remaining half packet of Tandaco bread yeast on top of wort.
OG 1.055.
Day 2 - lots of foam head action amd krausen ring, sitting at 26°
Day 3 - foam dropped, sitting at 20.2°. SG 1.017, smells amd taste good. Slight sweet and tinge of molasses
Looks like a real fast fermentation and possible FG in few days.
Will leave for 10-14 days to fully ferment.
Will dry hop 4 days before cold crashing and then bottling.
 

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Grmblz

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Hope you boiled the "cool spring water"?
Coopers dried yeast is pretty good, bread yeast addition not a good idea IMHO unless you are boiling it first to use as a nutrient for the brewing yeast.
Have a look at the Coopers Club web site, lots of recipes (try one of their vintage ales) Discounts for members and free shipping for about one week every month. Cheers G
 

DarrenHurst

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Why are you adding bread yeast to your wort?
Hi Stuart99, adding this as only had kit yeast and no extra yeast to use other than bread yeast. Did some research and seemed all good to use. Nothing too negative came back, after all, its just another yeast strain that ferments sugar to alcohol at the end 9f the day. Right?
 

butisitart

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Why are you adding bread yeast to your wort?
bread yeast is a good nutrient, but always boil the crap out of it for 10mins before adding. you want them dead, and your good beer yeasties cannabalise it. plenty of fairly recent posts re this
 

Stuart99

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I'm no expert but if bread yeast was equivalent to beer yeast then why do professional brewers spend the money buying particular strains from the yeast labs? AIUI beer strains are chosen for their good flavours and lack of undesirable characteristics, whereas presumably bread yeast is not. If i needed more yeast I would culture a starter from the kit yeast, in fact that's probably a good idea in all cases.
 

Grmblz

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Ok, bakers yeast and brewing yeast are the same species: Saccharomyces cerevisiae
Clydesdale and thoroughbred are the same species: horse
Both horses will pull a plough but you'll get much better results with one that's bred specifically to do it.

Yeast is the same. bakers yeast clags out at about 3.5% abv, brewers yeast about 10% abv, as alcohol is toxic to yeast.
Brewers yeast floc's (settles to the bottom) well, bakers yeast does not.
Brewers yeast ferments more cleanly than bakers yeast, which leaves a bready/yeasty taste.
These are broad generalisations, there are exceptions.

In your scenario the brewers yeast will probably carry on after the bakers yeast has given up so your final abv shouldn't suffer, but you will in all probability end up with a cloudy, bready/yeasty tasting brew. If this is your goal then carry on.

fwiw recommended quantity of modern dried brewing yeast for a 20lt batch of normal strength is 11gms.
 

sp0rk

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Yeast is the same. bakers yeast clags out at about 3.5% abv, brewers yeast about 10% abv, as alcohol is toxic to yeast.
I can unequivocally say that no, the vast majority of bakers yeast doesn't clag out at 3.5% ABV
I've made plenty of rum, TPW, various other spirit washes/mashes along with Kilju, Mead and a few random old ales with various bakers yeasts (Lowans, Saf-Instant, Fermex, Mauripan & Rekord)
I've pushed it up over 14% ABV many times, without having to load it up with a crapload of nutrients
There's been people quoting 3% to to 5% being the max for bread yeast, but it just isn't true
 

Stuart99

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(snip)
fwiw recommended quantity of modern dried brewing yeast for a 20lt batch of normal strength is 11gms.
So the 7gm of yeast in the kits is about a 50% underpitch for a 23lt batch. Making a starter sounds better and better.
 

kadmium

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Bread yeast doesn't crap out at 3.5% as stated above. Most of that information is however correct.

The other factor is the bread yeast and beer yeast will fight and use up all available oxygen during the replication phase.

You probably ended up with more bread yeast and less proper yeast than if you had just pitched beer yeast.
 

kadmium

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So the 7gm of yeast in the kits is about a 50% underpitch for a 23lt batch. Making a starter sounds better and better.
I wouldn't recommend making a starter for dry yeast tbh.

The yeast is prepared and stored in a way that makes it ideal for pitching as is. You would be better served just purchasing 2 packets.

Starters cost money and time, as well as specific equipment and an increased risk of infection. I would only recommend starters if you're planning on using liquid yeast, and harvesting yeast for future.

Most US-05 is a single packet yeast, and 11g is not really accurate across all brands etc. The actual packet will tell you pitching rates.

If you're newish, and doing kit brews, I would spend my money elsewhere and focus on things other than making starters for dry yeast.
 

DarrenHurst

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I can unequivocally say that no, the vast majority of bakers yeast doesn't clag out at 3.5% ABV
I've made plenty of rum, TPW, various other spirit washes/mashes along with Kilju, Mead and a few random old ales with various bakers yeasts (Lowans, Saf-Instant, Fermex, Mauripan & Rekord)
I've pushed it up over 14% ABV many times, without having to load it up with a crapload of nutrients
There's been people quoting 3% to to 5% being the max for bread yeast, but it just isn't true
Thank you for clarifying that small detail. I thought I was OK using it but being fairly new to brewing I did not want to argue with anyone. Onwards and upwards and restock on brewers yeast as a first choice. Cheers Daz
 

Grmblz

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I can unequivocally say that no, the vast majority of bakers yeast doesn't clag out at 3.5% ABV
I've made plenty of rum, TPW, various other spirit washes/mashes along with Kilju, Mead and a few random old ales with various bakers yeasts (Lowans, Saf-Instant, Fermex, Mauripan & Rekord)
I've pushed it up over 14% ABV many times, without having to load it up with a crapload of nutrients
There's been people quoting 3% to to 5% being the max for bread yeast, but it just isn't true
Oops, sorry Darren, looks like I was talking out my arse, wrote this from memory of experiences a hundred years ago, have done a bit of research and spOrk is correct.
Have a quick look at this though before committing to bakers yeast.
Can You Make Beer With Bread Yeast? Here’s What Will Happen | Beer Creation. Cheers G
 

sp0rk

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However like other have said, Brewer's Yeast is definitely the better choice all things considered
 

Stuart99

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I wouldn't recommend making a starter for dry yeast tbh.

The yeast is prepared and stored in a way that makes it ideal for pitching as is. You would be better served just purchasing 2 packets.

Starters cost money and time, as well as specific equipment and an increased risk of infection. I would only recommend starters if you're planning on using liquid yeast, and harvesting yeast for future.

Most US-05 is a single packet yeast, and 11g is not really accurate across all brands etc. The actual packet will tell you pitching rates.

If you're newish, and doing kit brews, I would spend my money elsewhere and focus on things other than making starters for dry yeast.
The extra time and cost are trivial IMO. If you are careful about cleaning and sanitation I don't see how there is any greater risk of infection than there is pitching straight into the wort. That risk of infection is the same as making a starter with liquid yeast or culturing the Coopers bottle yeast that I see recommended all over. At least you get to see whether the yeast is active a couple of days before making the wort not 24 hours afterwards. If anything surely a starter REDUCES the risk of infection of the wort because by pitching more yeast it gives the yeast a head start over any bacteria. And if you add some yeast nutrient to the wort prior to pitching then the yeast should have plenty of nutrients to feed them.
 

Grmblz

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Fermentis (US05) recommend direct pitch or re hydration, they do not recommend starters in fact due to their processes starters are considered damaging to yeast performance, other manufacturers of modern dried yeasts make the same recommendations. A quick google will verify this. Starters have their place but modern dried yeast isn't in it.
 

kadmium

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The extra time and cost are trivial IMO. If you are careful about cleaning and sanitation I don't see how there is any greater risk of infection than there is pitching straight into the wort. That risk of infection is the same as making a starter with liquid yeast or culturing the Coopers bottle yeast that I see recommended all over. At least you get to see whether the yeast is active a couple of days before making the wort not 24 hours afterwards. If anything surely a starter REDUCES the risk of infection of the wort because by pitching more yeast it gives the yeast a head start over any bacteria. And if you add some yeast nutrient to the wort prior to pitching then the yeast should have plenty of nutrients to feed them.
As Grmblz has said, the process of producing dry yeast is complicated. The biology and life cycle of yeast is also so.

There's fatty acids, lipids, cell division, YAN, strain blah blah blah. Dry yeast is produced with all required parameters carefully specified. They are designed to produce yeast ready for direct pitching, or perhaps rehydration. Fermentis, safe ale etc do not recommend starters. They recommend perhaps rehydration under certain conditions.

Making a starter from dry yeast may increase the cell count but the vitality of the yeast cells will be compromised. So yeah sure, maybe you can feel better that you see the packet actually works, but you're ultimately pitching more, unhealthy yeast.

The reason you make a starter for liquid yeast is because they use a pitching rate of 100B cells (Billion) other than Imperial Yeast who use 200B. For Ales, at .75m per ml, you need roughly 200B for a 20L batch. Considering liquid yeast undergoes a 20% loss per month, and starts at 100B unless you're pitching straight from White Labs warehouse, you're already starting under 50% of recommended pitching rate.

Dry yeast is much better at maintaining viability and runs about 19B cells per gram, or 200+B per 11.5g packet.

And I would propose that creating a starterwort, aerating, and leaving to spin on a stir plate, then crashing and pitching produces more opportunities for things to go wrong than simply cutting open a packet of dry yeast and sprinkling on.
 
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