Cooper's "New Style" Fermenters

[livo]

My 2 new snap taps have just arrived and my FVs have been in sterilising soak solutions for 4 - 5 days. By all accounts this is massive overkill since both acidified bleach and phosphoric acid treatment solutions are meant to be contact sanitisers that do their job in 30 seconds. Anyway, 4-5 days should not harmful. I'm about to remove and drain them without rinsing and get them ready to try again. Unfortunately, there is no sun today.
Then I'll do another 2 identical Brown Ale brews to the ones I have going under airlock in my old buckets. I'll post results in approximately 1 week.

 

[livo]

Well now I'm really confused. The new taps were sterilised / sanitised in Stellarsan before use. The 2 FVs in question were sanitised to the extreme and now, at day 5, I have 50% success / failure. 1 FV has developed the same dry pellicle while the other remains clear. I have absolutely no idea what is going on or what it is. I attach here 2 photos of my 20 year old bucket FVs taken immediately prior to bottling after 8 days fermentation. No infection whatever. Same procedures, same beer kits, same water (one boiled, the other from the tap). Everything is the same but only the Cooper's FVs get this crap on them.

Both of the Cooper's FVs are ready to bottle tomorrow and the infected one still hasn't soured yet, so I'll get them out of the FVs ASAP. This is really messing with my head.

I was thinking yesterday, (when there was still no infection) that the problem really only began when, or at least after, I stopped using the Krausen Koller. There was no sign of this infection yesterday. I can't say for sure it coincided, but I'm wondering if the design of these things relies upon the KK being in place. The KK protrudes down into the wort below the surface which makes a liquid barrier to "airborne" ingress. It also provides an extra 2" of headspace for CO2 below the lid seam. I guess the next thing is to try again, this time using the KK and see what happens.

 

[Paleman]

Boring

 

[philrob]

I admire your persistence. I'd have turfed these fermenters long before now !

 

[lost at sea]

I admire your persistence. I'd have turfed these fermenters long before now !

Agreed, I've never had a fermenter infection, however if I did it and associated taps would be straight in the bin.

 

[Feldon]

Good on you @livo for exploring a problem through direct experience and being willing to share it here for others, newbies in particular, to benefit from. It's in the great traditions of this forum.

 

[livo]

Good on you @livo for exploring a problem through direct experience and being willing to share it here for others, newbies in particular, to benefit from. It's in the great traditions of this forum.

I'll be pleased if this assists anybody else, but it is also a great knowledge base for my own records. I've just realised when this all started as I'd created a different thread about these 2 FVs last May. At the time I didn't know it was the FVs and thought it was the kits.

 

[eldertaco]

What are you using to sanitize these things? How many times a day do you open them to check for infection and thereby let microbes in?

I reckon it's time to hit it with caustic, or failing that maybe nuke it from orbit?

 

[livo]

What are you using to sanitize these things? How many times a day do you open them to check for infection and thereby let microbes in?

I reckon it's time to hit it with caustic, or failing that maybe nuke it from orbit?

1) Everything over the last few weeks. Alkaline Salts (Detergent) to clean. Acidified bleach, (not normally used), Steller San (generic Starsan), diluted 85% Phosphoric Acid, and now just yesterday and today, Sodium Metabisulphite and Iodophor. Not all together obviously. Oh, and UV from the sun. Do you know of something I haven't tried?

2) An insulting question considering I've made over 100 brews in the last 2 years alone and I've been brewing for over 40 years, but I'll answer it anyway. Probably closer to 150 as I've made 30 brews for my mate in less than the last 12 months, without issue by the way, using my other FVs, and that's just beer, which isn't all I ferment.

I don't open them until bottling day. I used to only notice it once it had reached FG and then deciding to bottle. I taste it at every SG test and then have a look at bottle day. Now that I'm aware, I can see the infection through the plastic using a torch. The photographs above are taken on bottle day. I'm not opening them every day and letting microbes in. Give me credit for a bit of common sense after 40 years on the job.

Even so, have you read the instructions for these fermenters? You are meant to use the Krausen Kollar for the first day or so until High Krausen has finished, and then remove it and the lid before replacing the lid directly to the FV itself. If this instructed / recommended procedure doesn't let microbes in, then what does? Even when I used the KKs I never removed them because of the risk from that very point. Consequently, it just made sense to me to stop using them as I didn't brew High Krausen beer.

 

[eldertaco]

Steady on tiger, only trying to help.

Like I said earlier, I would have been doing a soak with caustic soda after the first infection. Or as others have suggested just chuck em out.

 

[livo]

So, you would resort to scorched earth or more plastic waste and extra expense as your first choice! Well, how often do you frequently use shoulder high, chemical resistant gloves, full body protective body suites and face shields, with hot water caustic soda every time you make HOME BREW? Personally, I don't. Plus, in 40 years I've never really needed to.

Never mind. Thanks for your input. It means a lot to me.

 

[eldertaco]

No worries, enjoy your infected brews

 

[livo]

No worries, enjoy your infected brews

I apologise for coming over so gruffly. I guess the frustration got the better of me (not to mention a few infected brews).

 

[eldertaco]

No dramas, I know how bloody annoying a stubborn infection can be. Had many a lawn pour myself in the past, and sometimes it's pretty devastating tbh. Especially when you've thrown half a ton of hops at a brew!

 

[shmick]

Sometimes micro-scratches in HDPE will harbour bacteria that no amount of sanitising (not sterilising) will remove.
Short of boiling the entire FV there's not much that will fix it.
Replace for $25 before it spreads to everything else.

 

[livo]

Well, I'm about to find out Shmick, and I've already replaced them anyway. I bought a 60 litre FV, which I'd always baulked at because they are just too damn heavy when full. At my age I can still carry 25 kg FVs around, but 50 kg is out of the question.

 

[livo]

No dramas, I know how bloody annoying a stubborn infection can be. Had many a lawn pour myself in the past, and sometimes it's pretty devastating tbh. Especially when you've thrown half a ton of hops at a brew!

Fortunately for me, I've not had to tip too many out over the years, but then I've probably consumed some that others would have put down the drain. With this current infection, the beer taken out early is still OK. I can't really say it's off, but I have no idea how it will stand over time in the bottle. Lucky mine don't last long in the bottle.
If I allow it to sit in the FV for too long (like 10 days), it is pretty crappy, like really bad sour and undrinkable.

 

[livo]

A big advantage of using a 60 litre FV and 54 litre brew is the larger thermal mass holds a more consistent temperature in my uncontrolled environment. I hadn't considered that, but it's pretty obvious now. This morning instead of 22'C, which is where my 23 litre brews usually hover at this time of year, it is sitting nicely at around 19'C. Even at nearly 30'C in the heat of the day outside, and inside my beer room reached ambient at 26'C, that brew temperature didn't budge, or not that I could measure anyway.

I'm thinking I'm going to need to make a serious adjustment to my temp controlled brew fridge for Lager season this year or get a cool room installed.

To be honest, I no longer care if the original FVs come good, but I will let you know either way. I hate unfinished threads in forums. Thanks all, for your patience and I'm sorry I bored you Pale Man.

Wherever you're from Drink up!

 

[Paddy Melon]

A big advantage of using a 60 litre FV and 54 litre brew is the larger thermal mass holds a more consistent temperature in my uncontrolled environment. I hadn't considered that, but it's pretty obvious now. This morning instead of 22'C, which is where my 23 litre brews usually hover at this time of year, it is sitting nicely at around 19'C. Even at nearly 30'C in the heat of the day outside, and inside my beer room reached ambient at 26'C, that brew temperature didn't budge, or not that I could measure anyway.

I'm thinking I'm going to need to make a serious adjustment to my temp controlled brew fridge for Lager season this year or get a cool room installed.

To be honest, I no longer care if the original FVs come good, but I will let you know either way. I hate unfinished threads in forums. Thanks all, for your patience and I'm sorry I bored you Pale Man.

Wherever you're from Drink up!

Hey Livo, for what it's worth I have enjoyed this thread and I have been wracking my brain for a solution and the only thing I could come up with is impractical. I thought if there was a large enough Microwave oven they could be sterilized just like babies bottles. I know it's not helpful but your problem has me stumped too.

 

[livo]

Thanks Paddy. At this point, the Cerveza is beginning to clear, with the yeast flocculating and so far, all is looking good. Still too early to call. I haven't touched it at all to do a gravity, and I won't until day 5 or 6 unless I can see the flower. If that happens I'll be taking it out early again, which appears to work.