Controller amps and elements

[Mr B]

Hey all

I am preparing to build a controller using herms, pids, and elements. Looking at elements for the HLT and HERMS.

5 star distilling weldless elements and housings look ok and come highly recommended.

http://www.5stardistilling.net/weldless-2400w-element-guard/

I will have a 15 amp and 10 amp circuit to use. Maybe more than one 10 amp, will have to check it out, but would rather limit to two.

Appreciate the knowledge and experience of others - I have searched for the past couple of hours to no result.

If I use a 2400w element on the 10 amp circuit, and a 3600w element on the 15 amp circuit, is there a little headroom to run a couple of pids and two pumps?

Or would I effectively need a third circuit to run this stuff?

5 Star only appears to have the above wattages, nothing a little lower to cater for running the extras. Their housings are pretty cool and save me stuffing around making something.

Also, does anyone have any pics etc on how they have connected the 5 star weldless elements in the housings? Will either get a sparky to do it or get it certified. Do you need a terminal block or similar inside the housing?

Thanks

 

[Camo6]

What type of pump are you planning to use? My Kaixins draw 100mA according to the label. I imagine PIDs would draw even less.
My original controller used two 10amp feeds to each run a 2400W element, pump and PID without problems but it is at the high end of the recommended consumption.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Would you be pumping and boiling at the same time ?

How big are the pumps ?

The pid wont take much power so should be fine on the 10A cct.

 

[SCR29]

Running a 2400 and 2x keg king mkII pumps on a 10amp in hlt together with no probs and a 3600 on 15amp in boil. No pids but all works okay.

 

[TheWiggman]

Are you referring to 10A and 15A circuit as in 2 different circuits in the house? Or are you running feeds into a control box?
Typically - correct me if I'm wrong Camo - a domestic circuit running 10A wall sockets will have a 16A breaker, allowing 6A for other appliances while the element's running. These should come off a separate individual socket to the run powering the element.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

With a 15A cct, only 1 outlet ( single GPO ) per cct is permitted. They use the same sized wire for 10A & 15A ccts, but the Earth pin on the plug is bigger so you cant run 15A appliances of a 10A cct

 

[Camo6]

Are you referring to 10A and 15A circuit as in 2 different circuits in the house? Or are you running feeds into a control box?
Typically - correct me if I'm wrong Camo - a domestic circuit running 10A wall sockets will have a 16A breaker, allowing 6A for other appliances while the element's running. These should come off a separate individual socket to the run powering the element.

Sure, if the switchboard uses breakers then more than likely they're 16A. But, the OP hasn't mentioned that so for all we know it's an old ceramic fuse with a bit of coat hanger for protection.
A 10A circuit is likely to have numerous outlets, depending on max demand, and loading more than 10 Amps on it will likely cause headaches when SWMBO puts the dishwasher on or the fridge element kicks in. The 16A is the break capacity to protect the circuit not the recommended work limit. I wish the bloke that put my kitchen and laundry on the same circuit considered that. I reckon running a new circuit will be easier than training the wife not to run the dishwasher, drier and kettle at the same time.
Like I said, running a 2400W element, pump and pid worked fine for me but I have two 2.5mm2 circuits to the shed and don't run any other loads when brewing. Plus my supply voltage is around 250V due to the proximity to the transformer I suspect. I've actually upgraded to 20A CB's as the 2.5mm2 enclosed in the ground is still capable of carrying over 24A. This allowed me to upgrade to 3.6kW elements on each circuit. I'd guess most older 15A circuits in homes are wired in 2.5mm2 anyway. They're just limited to one or two outlets maximum.
If the OP has access to a 10A and 15A circuit and was confident of their integrity, I'd be running the 2.4kW off the 10A and 3.6kW off the 15A and be sure to reduce other loads when brewing so your PID doesn't drop out half way through a weizen step mash.

I can recommend the 5star elements and guards. I've used BP tunnel screw connectors on mine. One thing to take into consideration is a drainhole on the guard in the event that the thread leaks internally. I've cut a slot from the bottom of the seal of mine. Be sure to mention this to the electrician when he wires them up, yeah?

Good luck with the build. It's pretty much how I built my controller and was great fun and a learning experience to boot. Just seek help so you don't get a boot.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I am not sure if i would be pumping 24A thru 2.5mm

anything 20A and above really needs 4mm

 

[TheWiggman]

Them's fightin' words Stu

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Dont make me break out AS/NZS 3000:2000

 

[Logan_01]

As3008.1 for current carring capacity. Dont forget those derating factors. Lol. Good old tafe days.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

As3008.1 for current carring capacity. Dont forget those derating factors. Lol. Good old tafe days.

I remmember those days.....and the ones afterwards...

I take the female approach to current carrying capacity.....bigger is better.

 

[Mr B]

Sorry Gents - Work today, how inconvenient.

For the record:

All circuits are in the garage, which is separate to the house and separate from the house circuit.

15A circuit is new, and installed a couple of years ago for a welder. Fusebox has been upgraded to current circuit breakers etc. (I removed the rusty nail jammed into the old ceramic breaker - just kidding, and noting this is ridiculously stupid kids, dont try it.

Not likely to be other stuff running on the 10a circuits, and I think there are a couple of them.

Pumps will probably draw about 1A each. Pid appears to draw about 5w ea, so negligible.

I am thinking to run two pids, two pumps and a ~2400w element on the 10a circuit. The 3600 element on the 15a. This will allow me to use just the 10a side if I want to use the rig elsewhere without a 15a circuit.

Would likely run the herms on the 15a, for more ramping power on the mash, and have the 2400w element in the hlt. I could then run the hlt element and the herms on the hlt to get the water up to temp quicker if I need to, then switch over for the mash. Oh, btw will be outputting normally 50l, maybe 75, so a bit of water there. Gas NASA on the boil kettle.

From the above, sounds feasible. I could also put in a pot to reduce the 2400 element draw, but would rather avoid this complication. If 5 star had a 2200w element would be tempted for this, but they dont - and more power is betterer eh - until its not - hence the question.

Thanks, might order the elements!

Please pipe up if you can see any problems

 

[Mr B]

Awww fark. Hadnt considered the couple of fridges running in the granny flat which is half of the garage converted. Doh!

Might have to do some testing. Checked out the fusebox, may even be two 15a curcuits - but there is only one 15a powerpoint (i.e. with the large earth blade) that I got put in after the board had been redone?

Will post a photo for information/interest.

To check what goes where, do I just switch on/off and test each point to see what goes where? Any better way or trade strategy to this?

Re the poto:

I assume that N8 is the sole feed to the house, and N7 is the solar panel feed to grid. So P1 & 2 should be to points in the garage and granny flat (either or both depending).

P3 may be a 15A circuit to the garage, but maybe with a normal powerpoint fitted. Then the '15 amp shed' should be the welder point with a 15a powerpoint.

Make sense to the sparkys (Stu?)

 

[Mr B]

 

[Mr B]

Also, are the smaller breakers on the 15a points non-rcd?

Is this normal?

 

[sponge]

P1 and P2 are the only RCD protected circuits, both 20A. If they're your brewery feeds it should be sweet making sure there's no other large loads on those circuits.

 

[Mr B]

Thanks Sponge

Interesting. Does this mean that they will supply 20a?

I thought that general house circuitry, apart from dedicated 15A or higher circuits were 10A, largely due to the standard wire size used to feed them?

Being that I would like to use RCD protected circuits, does this mean that I can/could/should not e.g. run a 3600w element off P1 and P2?

Or use the 15A curcuit?

The breakers were obviously installed by a sparky, is the install okey dokey? Will those breakers protect from fire etc?

 

[S.E]

With a 15A cct, only 1 outlet ( single GPO ) per cct is permitted. They use the same sized wire for 10A & 15A ccts, but the Earth pin on the plug is bigger so you cant run 15A appliances of a 10A cct

[SIZE=11pt]A few weeks ago you were venomously against advising on diy electrical projects Stu, whatever happened to DO NOT **** WITH ELECTRICITY? :blink: [/SIZE]

 

[Camo6]

Dont make me break out AS/NZS 3000:2000

If you reckon you can pump 24A through a 20A MCB you might need to break out more than the AS3000. Actually the MAX current capacity for 2.5mm2 stranded buried in an enclosure is closer to 30A. Of course that's not what you'd allow it to conduct hence the 20A breakers. A 3.6kW element on a 230V supply is going to draw a bit under 16A so your load is still falling under the load breaking capacity of the protective device.
From all the advice I've gleaned (and I ask a hell of a lot of questions), most 15A domestic circuits are run in 2.5mm2 with a 20A breaker (that'd leave Wiggas 5A to play with) It's not ideal in all derating circumstances, but it's safe and to regs in my scenario. And Stu, if you can come around and chase through a concrete driveway, crushed rock and a patio I'll happily run 6mm to my shed and brew you a batch on me.