Coil Through Conical To Control Temp

[Yorg]

Hi folks,
I've been picking the collective brain of brew forums (otherwise known as research) to come up with an automated way of keeping the ferment at the right temp.

The setup I am thinking of making:
I've a thought to put a coil of copper inside an insulated fermenter and run coolant - probably just water - through the coil.
The coil is attached to hoses that pass through a chest freezer wall.
Inside the chest freezer - all in series, mind you - the hoses connect to another coil which sits inside a pot, which has a heaing element mounted in it, full of water. Basically, a heat exchanger.
Then a pump.
An electronic temp controller has a probe mounted in the fermenter.

How it works:
When it is too cold in the ferment, the pump and heating element switched on by the temp controller - which circulates heated "coolant" through the coil in the fermenter.

When it is too hot in the ferment the temp controller switches the pump and the freezer on and the heating element off, which chills the water in the pot and circulates chilled "coolant" through the coil in the fermenter.

Question:
Anyone have any links or info on this being done.
What kind of pump would be reasonably available and priced that would cope with this kind of duty cycle. ( I imagine a washing machine pump would not last very long, or would it?)

 

[JasonY]

Hey Yorg, I have been thinking of trying something similar for a while but there always seem to be too many more important projects. Since I am rebuilding my system I dont expect to try this for at least a year but here are my thoughts.

1) Unless you have to then don't as cleaning/sanitising the coil will be a pain in the ass.

2) Would a peltier type device strapped to the outside work (again no cleaning).

3) I would only bother with either a cooling or heating system not both. This may depend on the time of the year and where you live but would simplfy it a lot. If you are cycling between heating/cooling you can probably just adjust the timings so it didnt overshoot. Insulation should stop any crazy ambient fluctuations.
A heat belt may be a better source of heating if required. I would plan on inserting the coil through the room of the fermenter so it can be withdrawn and cleaned each time and use SS if possible.

Anyway when I get a plastic conical I may try this if I need cooling/heating. If I manage to get a SS conical I would want to have proven this on a less expensive piece of gear before cutting into it!

If you do go ahead with it let us know how it goes.

 

[Screwtop]

Commercial operations use coils of poly pipe wound around the cylindrical part of the conical fermenter. They are covered in insulation matting. Glycol is pumped through and temp maintained by temp probe controlled solenoid valve. Pretty simple, nothing to clean! Have seen 1,200L conicals used in a fairly warm climate with only about 9 coils wrapped around, so pretty efficient. Number of coils required would be dependent upon desired fermentation temp, climate, coolant used (cold water/glycol) and system efficiency (pump rating, length of run, lagging/insulation etc).

Screwy

 

[snagler]

Yorg, how big is your intended batch size? Sounds like overkill to me if your batch size/fermenter can be fit into a cheap second hand fermentation fridge. Just use a heat belt or light bulb with your controller for your heat cycle. Easy with less frigging around if you ask me.

 

[Yorg]

Yorg, how big is your intended batch size? Sounds like overkill to me if your batch size/fermenter can be fit into a cheap second hand fermentation fridge. Just use a heat belt or light bulb with your controller for your heat cycle. Easy with less frigging around if you ask me.

You are probably right. My batch size is the regular.

 

[Yorg]

Commercial operations use coils of poly pipe wound around the cylindrical part of the conical fermenter. They are covered in insulation matting. Glycol is pumped through and temp maintained by temp probe controlled solenoid valve. Pretty simple, nothing to clean! Have seen 1,200L conicals used in a fairly warm climate with only about 9 coils wrapped around, so pretty efficient. Number of coils required would be dependent upon desired fermentation temp, climate, coolant used (cold water/glycol) and system efficiency (pump rating, length of run, lagging/insulation etc).

Screwy

Was it somewhat flattened polyvynil flexible pipe?

If you did this on a home scale, would the pipe be about 1/2"?

Also, is the glycol non-reactive, so that it would not require a special pump?

 

[Screwtop]

Was it somewhat flattened polyvynil flexible pipe?

If you did this on a home scale, would the pipe be about 1/2"?

Also, is the glycol non-reactive, so that it would not require a special pump?

Looks like regular black 1/2" pvc pipe to me. Don't know about the glycol, the use of glycol in combustion engine coolant reduces cathodic reactions as far as I know so maybe it is non reactive, maybe someone else could comment re this. Lots of guys use aquarium pumps to recirc glycol or glycol/water blends through their flooded fonts to keep them cold.

Screwy

 

[willanth]

Glycol (as in the food grade product that is availible) is about as kind to pumps as you can get. When you cool it down it's a viscous gel, and is non-corrosive and non-reactive. If you were to use it at home, I would suggest getting a couple of rolls of blue flexible hose from bunnings in the garden department. It's made for caravans and such, and is food grade and flexible. Add some fittings and you're set. For not a whole lot of money, either. Then you only need a refrigeration method and a pump, fittings and such.

Cheers,
Will

 

[Yorg]

Ripper.
Sounds like a plan, but where does one buy food grade glycol?

 

[Phrak]

Commercial operations use coils of poly pipe wound around the cylindrical part of the conical fermenter. They are covered in insulation matting. Glycol is pumped through and temp maintained by temp probe controlled solenoid valve. Pretty simple, nothing to clean! Have seen 1,200L conicals used in a fairly warm climate with only about 9 coils wrapped around, so pretty efficient. Number of coils required would be dependent upon desired fermentation temp, climate, coolant used (cold water/glycol) and system efficiency (pump rating, length of run, lagging/insulation etc).

Screwy

Just to clarify Screwtop's description a bit, the glycol coils are usually wrapped around the OUTSIDE of the fermentor. They do not come into contact with the beer.

The big-boy's fermentors are usually stainless steel as well, but I don't see a reason why you couldn't perform the same setup with a plastic fermentor.

Yorg, I'm sure you've considered simply using a fridge as a fermentation chamber, rather than custom building a glycol jacket for your fermentors?

Tim

 

[Screwtop]

Just to clarify Screwtop's description a bit, the glycol coils are usually wrapped around the OUTSIDE of the fermentor. They do not come into contact with the beer.

Tim

Thanks for clearing that up Tim, the coils are usually just black poly, no need for food grade anything as it is a closed system and is nowhere near wort. The coils on the OUTSIDE of the fermenters are wrapped in lagging also and taped up. The ladding is the foam stuff like sleep mats.

Screwy

 

[Asher]

I thought long and hard about the above options... but since you'll need a fridge for the glycol anyway + a Pump + Hose + Solenoid valves + Glycol + Insulation + + + ! .... I decided to buy a $50 fridge and put the whole thing inside....

Plastic conical in fridge

Asher

BTW - my compost bin smells like Kriek Lambic from all the spent cherries