Cider Is Really Bloody Slow To Ferment Out

[Nevalicious]

Alright, so roughly two and a half weeks ago, I put down my first crack at a cider. 10L of no name preservative free apple juice and 12L of no-name apple/pear juice, added Brewcraft Yeast Nutrient Mix (DAP and other stuff) to specs, pitched Nottingham straight from the pack and started the ferment at about 19 odd deg.

Starting OG was 1048 roughly, went off like a rocket and has stalled somewhat at about 1015, will not go any lower. The weather has started to get more wintery, so I moved the cider from the garage into the house, sits about 17 deg according to the sticker on the side... I would whack it in the brew fridge, but thats currently been put to work...

Now, i used the ale yeast becuase I didn't want a mouth puckering bone dry cider, but if i bottle this at current gravity I think i'll be asking for trouble. I have tried to do a search on my problem but cannot find any info on what sort of SG i should be at... This is my first attempt at cider and also first time using Nottingham yeast

I apologise if someone has covered this, I have tried to find an answer before posting so any help would be great. Also, I am in no great rush so if the answer comes back to wait for a few more weeks in primary, so be it... This isn't really cider weather anyways

Thanks again guys

Tyler

 

[Verbyla]

I'd strongly suggest not to bottle! Like you said, you'll be asking for trouble. Ciders will generally ferment out dry to 1.000 whether you use bread yeast, ale yeast or wine yeast. The only reason I can see it finishing at a higher gravity is if you added extra sugar.

The temperature is fine. I've had ciders that have taken 3 and a half weeks. Give it a gentle stir and check it again in a week and see if thats helps the yeasties wake up. I wouldn't start worring until the 4 week mark. If it still doesn't ferment it could be a result of old yeast

 

[redbeard]

it should drop below 1010, & get close to 1000. The yeast might have dropped out, so move it to a warmer area & swirl the fermenter to get the yeast re-cicrculating. Wait a few days / week & see if the fg is dropping again. At worst, you might have to pitch some more yeast.

cheers

 

[RdeVjun]

Hi Tyler, I doubt very much that it is finished. I would try to stir it up, i.e. to rouse it gently with a sanitised spoon. Also adding some more yeast nutrient may be enough to kick it along, apple/ pear juice is just about devoid of the essentials. If that doesn't do the trick, it won't hurt to repitch some fresh yeast. Notto is a fairly high attenuator so shouldn't have much trouble getting that to <1.010 and it wouldn't surprise me if it went closer to 1.000, but it seems to have stalled. One practical way to test for what the lowest it will go is by a forced ferment, so take a few hundred ml, add more yeast and nutrient, shake well and ferment at 30C, that should give you an idea of where it should finish up.
It won't hurt to be cautious with this, the last thing you want is bottle bombs... About the only thing I'd do differently is kick one of the other fermenters out of your fermenting fridge! (BTW, if I use airlocks in my big fermenting fridge there's still only enough room for two fermenters, however if I use cling film, there's room for four (cubes) and it is just so convenient all round. Maybe that would help?)

That's an interesting recipe though, the sort of thing I want to try myself as I'm not fussed on bone- dry bottled cider either (another reason I really should start kegging- stopping cider where I want it!). Getting a bit OT here, but I am not overly thrilled with Wy 4766 or champagne yeast, wanted to look at low-mid attenuating ale strains like 1968 or 1338, maybe Windsor in dried, will be curious to know how yours with Nottingham ends up.

Thanks for sharing, hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

 

[pdilley]

You are not stuck with bone-dry cider once it is fermented out dry.

The simplest method is to serve in a glass and put in a teaspoon or two of sugar and stir. Depending on how large your glass you will get about 1 1/2 disolved into the cider with some stirring and let to sit for a few more minutes the residual will dissolve into it as well.

The next simplest method is to pour 1/3 to 1/2 fresh apple juice and top up the glass with cider during serving. This lets you dial in a level of sweetness that the recipient of the cider prefers. Changing your juice or apple type will increase the variety of flavour in the drink as well.


Cheers
Brewer Pete

 

[Nevalicious]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I double checked the two cubes in the fermenting fridge and was happy that they had reached fg, so removed them, and have cranked it up to 21 deg, placed the barrel in the fridge containing the cider and will hope for the best... Good to know that others have had cider take nearly 4 weeks to finish... Also, when I have finished this post, will go and check the gravity once more, give it a stir with my spoon (sanitised of course) and check in a few more days...

@ RdeVjun: I remember reading on here (AHB) about something where some guy, here or o/s, cannot remember exactly had like 50 or so 5L carboys and decided to make up 50 or so cider batches using different yeasts, adjuncts and techniques etc... From his findings he recommended Notto as one of the best yeasts for cider (even over the more expensive Wyeast strains), and as I had some on hand I thought it best to give it a shot... I had some Champagne yeast to use initially but gave it a miss at the last minute

@ Brewer Pete: Thats great advice, I had read that people have done that. Great way to produce sweet mid-strength cider

Also, must mentioned that I moved it to the fridge about 2 days ago, so may have dropped some

Will go check it now. Thanks everyone and will keep you posted :beerbang:

 

[manticle]

One method spoken about on American forums (but not very much here) is to rack when the cider is as sweet as you like, cold condition then rack cold condition etc a few more times until the cider is completely clear.

The above method sounds very risky to me but I guess if you were experienced you might be able to give it a go. Be super warned that unless you are experienced, you could get exploding glass. The other method I've heard about but not tried (and sounds to me very dodgy) is to get the cider to the level of sweetness you want then bottle then pasteurise the bottles. Not sure if you let carbonate to the level you want then pastuerise. Soaking bottles in hot water sounds like a recipe for disaster to me (and for potential cooked cider flavours) but if you're interested check the cider subforum on homebrewtlak for more detailed info.

One final method is to stop the cider a little short of FG, and bottle without priming. Again - experience would be recommended to gain an idea of exactly when is the right time.

I am not recommending any of the above methods - just suggesting they are used by other cider makers out there and you may be interested in reading about them.

 

[peas_and_corn]

I recently went to my brew club's cider crush (really cheap juice- awesome) and I plan to ferment the cider until it tastes how I want and keg, halting fermentation.

 

[Nevalicious]

Manticle, they sound way risky and a little above my experience levels as you rightly suggested but would be an interesting read...

I wish sometimes I could keg for that reason (halt fermentation), and to not have to serilise bottles ^_^ But only for those reasons... I enjoy roadies and drinking my brews round mates places!!

BTW, I just checked, its down to 1012, still not low enough, but still going... Gave the brew a mid strength stir (not enough to aerate) and added a little more DAP... More to come for those who are interested

Thanks again

Tyler

 

[RdeVjun]

Yep Tyler, I recall the Great Cider Yeast Experiment, a very handy resource and there's more links included in it too.
I know it isn't all about attenuation but still want to try 1469 for a really dry one to back- sweeten while 1882 is another strain I'm using ATM, it is a slightly lower attenuator with a mildly fruity perfume (in ESBs admittedly), might include a bottle of that in my next round of 3L mini fermenters, probably won't be adding DME though.

 

[boobiedazzler]

Manticke that does sound like a dangerous idea, and if it's still fermenting in the bottle isnt it going to be ending up as dry anyway ?

A less fermentable sugar might be the answer to a sweeter cider, like lactose. and heres something i cant understand, if a yeast only attenuates at 80% how does it work out that a cider can finish at 1.000

 

[Stuster]

A yeast will only attenuate to 80% in a beer wort mainly because there are sugars in there which it can't ferment. There aren't as many unfermentable sugars in a cider (or a mead) so the yeast will consume all it can and attenuates much more.

 

[manticle]

Manticke that does sound like a dangerous idea, and if it's still fermenting in the bottle isnt it going to be ending up as dry anyway ?

I use lactose in my ciders. As I said - not something I am willing to try myself and thus wouldn't recommend it on that basis - I offer the ideas purely out of interest to further people's reading and knowledge. I believe that if ferment is stopped early and allowed to carbonate without priming, the recommendation is to chill all bottle immediately upon reaching the right stage of carbonation.

The racking method supposedly removes enough yeast although I believe it may only ever result in still cider and the pasteurisation method kills the yeast so no further fermentation will occurr. Whether or not there's a problem with autolysis that's ever been noted I'm not sure. People do it, apparently it works but at the moment at least I'll use other mthods.

 

[Nevalicious]

For those that are interested, its now down to about 1.004. Its been going on 6 weeks now. To be honest, i completely forgot about the cider, its been comfortably sitting at 20 degs slowly chugging away... Thought this afternoon, hmm, should probably do a gravity check and low and behold, its SLOOOOOOWLY going down.

Wil probably just bottle this weekend, gravity should be close to finished, will bulk prime at a little under my target i reckon... Its Notto, not Champagne yeast so I reckon 1004 is getting to its limit.

ATM, bout 6.0% cider.... Ouch, headache material??? Anyone had a session on homemade cider and woke up with a gigantic headache :icon_drunk:
Cheers

Tyler

 

[manticle]

For those that are interested, its now down to about 1.004. Its been going on 6 weeks now. To be honest, i completely forgot about the cider, its been comfortably sitting at 20 degs slowly chugging away... Thought this afternoon, hmm, should probably do a gravity check and low and behold, its SLOOOOOOWLY going down.

Wil probably just bottle this weekend, gravity should be close to finished, will bulk prime at a little under my target i reckon... Its Notto, not Champagne yeast so I reckon 1004 is getting to its limit.

ATM, bout 6.0% cider.... Ouch, headache material??? Anyone had a session on homemade cider and woke up with a gigantic headache :icon_drunk:
Cheers

Tyler

Only get big headaches if I use campden or sulphites (so subsequently I don't). That said, if I have available choice I normally have one or so ciders, then switch.

 

[Scruffy]

My ciders usually end up around 9% - which is kind of missing the point really. i.e. not yer genuine, authentic, innocently fermented apple juice. However, there's no extra chemicals, so no headaches - mixing drinks and drinking crap usually gets you messy in the morning... If you're a professional alcoholic, hydration is important - start soon after you get up (Vodka), then just keep yourself topped up during the day, a good 4/4.5%, pints, as required. You're now ready for the evening's ciders...

 

[QldKev]

My ciders usually end up around 9% - which is kind of missing the point really. i.e. not yer genuine, authentic, innocently fermented apple juice. However, there's no extra chemicals, so no headaches - mixing drinks and drinking crap usually gets you messy in the morning... If you're a professional alcoholic, hydration is important - start soon after you get up (Vodka), then just keep yourself topped up during the day, a good 4/4.5%, pints, as required. You're now ready for the evening's ciders...

go away

 

[Nevalicious]

My ciders usually end up around 9% - which is kind of missing the point really. i.e. not yer genuine, authentic, innocently fermented apple juice. However, there's no extra chemicals, so no headaches - mixing drinks and drinking crap usually gets you messy in the morning... If you're a professional alcoholic, hydration is important - start soon after you get up (Vodka), then just keep yourself topped up during the day, a good 4/4.5%, pints, as required. You're now ready for the evening's ciders...

Fair enough!?

 

[Scruffy]

kids today, eh - they take one little thing you say, out of context, blow it up out of all proportion, and throw it back at ya...

apologies however, for somewhat hijacking an otherwise heartfelt cry for help - i am three sheets already - extolling the virtues of a life of self medication aside, starting gravity of 1.048 dropping to 1.004 gives you 75% attenuation, which is OK for Nottingham, could go a gnats further, but don't get complacent - keep things clean and stuff, and bottle if you feel you don't want to wait! Yup, i reckon bottle.

 

[Airgead]

apologies however, for somewhat hijacking an otherwise heartfelt cry for help - i am three sheets already - extolling the virtues of a life of self medication aside, starting gravity of 1.048 dropping to 1.004 gives you 75% attenuation, which is OK for Nottingham, could go a gnats further, but don't get complacent - keep things clean and stuff, and bottle if you feel you don't want to wait! Yup, i reckon bottle.

Just remember... Nottingham is 75% attenuation in a beer (or more specifically in a standard laboratory wort). Not in a cider. Ciders have more simple sugars so will ferment much lower. I wouldn't be surprised if it went all the way to 1.000.

Cheers
Dave