Caustic COP system

[Flavourybitterness]

Hi all,

I have a heated and pumped COP spray ball system. Sick of using napisan as it is too foamy. PBW is too difficult to obtain where I am. Am comfortable working with strong chemicals and of course wear appropriate PPE. COP system is remote operated and gets used at a distance.

I would like to introduce the following system into my home brewery. All stainless. Concerning cleaning fermenters, brite tanks & dispensing kegs which are all made up of corny kegs & sanke kegs.

step 1: hot water rinse- 10 mins.
step 2: 2% caustic @ 60-80 degrees.
step 3: hot water rinse 5 mins

seal and store if not going to be used immediately
Before use:
step 4: star san (which is usually saved until cloudy or pH above 3)

Is this acceptable practice? Is there anything anyone would like to add.

Thanks in advance.

 

[MHB]

Apart from calling it CIP (Cleaning In Place).
It will be a lot less labour saving than you expect, It will take longer than you think, the risk of contaminating your beer is much higher than you think. You will need to get a lot more up close and personal with the process than you think.

If you have one spray ball you can clean one tank at a time. The physical hammering action of the spray on the surfaces is an important part of the cleaning process, it isn't just a fill and drain, in fact as part of the design you need to be getting the used cleaner out of the tank pretty fast so it doesn't build up in the bottom, it will clean less effectively under the built up liquid than it will where the spraying action is hitting the surface.

You need to make sure all pipes and lines are self draining so you hold no cleaner in the lines.

Don't store Caustic, Caustic reacts with CO2 in the air and turns into Sodium Carbonate, a cleaner but far less effective than Sodium Hydroxide. This happens pretty quickly, very quickly when hot, fast enough to have vacuum imploded more than one tank when hot caustic was sprayed into a closed tank full of CO2.
Lacking a way to measure the Alkalinity of your cleaner (titration would work) I really would be suspicious of a stored caustic solution.

I for one can think of a lot of better ways to spend money and save time in a brewhouse, If you are sure you want to do this think the process through very carefully, look up some basic references to CIP systems and how to manage them. then do some more serious thinking.
Mark

 

[Flavourybitterness]

Thanks for the reply Mark.

By COP, I mean Clean Out of Place? By that I mean the kegs are inverted in the wash area to maintain rapid drainage and recirculation as the spray ball does its job. CO2 isn't an issue because of this I would have assumed. As the kegs are prewashed and disassembled... so they are semi opened.

It is not dissimilar to this blokes set up: 20180425 154101

This set up is already made and is getting used. I am very happy with my cleaning, and touch wood haven't had problems. I just don't like the foam from napisan and chems are hard and expensive to get where I am. Caustic is cheap and seemingly industry standard, albeit not home brew industry.

With that said I hope my process makes a bit more sense and that any advice for cleaning (chemicals and process) would be appreciated.

Thanks kindly,

 

[MHB]

Ok so your just setting up a cleaning station, sort of like a keg cleaner. Wouldn't hurt if you put up some pictures.

I still would strongly recommend not trying to store a Caustic solution. The other part (other than reacting with CO2) is that all the soil you clean out of your equipment is going into the Caustic tank and being stored to get sprayed around next time you use the system at some point it will be both filthy and les active and need dumping.

At work I do up to 40 kegs (50L) before wasting the cleaning solution (1.5% NaOH). The keg cleaner holds about 75L of Caustic and its heated to about 80oC.
Operation is: -
invert and mount kegs (twin head cleaner)

• Vent to drain
• Blow out with compressed air (air) - to drain
• Rinse with water until water is running clean (we cask condition all our beer so tend to have a fair amount of trub) -to drain
• Blow out with air - to drain
• Recirculate hot caustic - to caustic tank (8-10 minutes)
• Vent to drain
• Blow out with compressed air (air) - to drain
• Rinse with water - to drain

Most keg cleaners would then: -

• Rinse with sterile water (or filtered) - to drain
• Blow out with compressed air - to drain
• Wash with acid based sanitiser (acid based ie Peroxitane) will stop the buildup of beer stone. Some systems recirculate from a tank (separate tank and pump required) some use a venturi mixer and send the sanitiser to waste.
• Blow out to tank - to waste with CO2
• Pressurise keg for counterpressure filling with CO2
• Demount kegs and start again.

As we cask condition we have all the kegs openable and hand inspect (have a sniff if they aren't really clean you will notice), acid wash, drain and add priming in the brewhouse before filling.
I get through 8 kegs per hour, (twin head cleaner) so call it around 15 minutes per keg, near the end when the caustic isn't as sharp I usually stretch the caustic clean cycle out a bit, keep an eye on the caustic if its isn't up to snuff might add some more caustic about 30 kegs in. Add another half an hour to set up warm up the caustic, another half an hour on the end to clean down and pack up.

If you look at the cleaning cycle, there isn't all that much standing around at a distance, somewhere in the 15 minutes the next to be cleaned need bringing forward, de labeling, cleaning on the outside, checking, last cleaned need stacking... Its pretty hands on.

You should be able to get PBW (or BBW from my local) delivered with what ever else you are ordering, I suspect it more about price.
Commercial brewing is about 80% cleaning and 20% making beer - suck it up, if your going to brew you will be doing plenty of it.
Mark

 

[S.E]

Ok so your just setting up a cleaning station, sort of like a keg cleaner. Wouldn't hurt if you put up some pictures.

I still would strongly recommend not trying to store a Caustic solution. The other part (other than reacting with CO2) is that all the soil you clean out of your equipment is going into the Caustic tank and being stored to get sprayed around next time you use the system at some point it will be both filthy and les active and need dumping.

At work I do up to 40 kegs (50L) before wasting the cleaning solution (1.5% NaOH). The keg cleaner holds about 75L of Caustic and its heated to about 80oC.
Operation is: -
invert and mount kegs (twin head cleaner)

• Vent to drain
• Blow out with compressed air (air) - to drain
• Rinse with water until water is running clean (we cask condition all our beer so tend to have a fair amount of trub) -to drain
• Blow out with air - to drain
• Recirculate hot caustic - to caustic tank (8-10 minutes)
• Vent to drain
• Blow out with compressed air (air) - to drain
• Rinse with water - to drain

Most keg cleaners would then: -

• Rinse with sterile water (or filtered) - to drain
• Blow out with compressed air - to drain
• Wash with acid based sanitiser (acid based ie Peroxitane) will stop the buildup of beer stone. Some systems recirculate from a tank (separate tank and pump required) some use a venturi mixer and send the sanitiser to waste.
• Blow out to tank - to waste with CO2
• Pressurise keg for counterpressure filling with CO2
• Demount kegs and start again.

As we cask condition we have all the kegs openable and hand inspect (have a sniff if they aren't really clean you will notice), acid wash, drain and add priming in the brewhouse before filling.
I get through 8 kegs per hour, (twin head cleaner) so call it around 15 minutes per keg, near the end when the caustic isn't as sharp I usually stretch the caustic clean cycle out a bit, keep an eye on the caustic if its isn't up to snuff might add some more caustic about 30 kegs in. Add another half an hour to set up warm up the caustic, another half an hour on the end to clean down and pack up.

If you look at the cleaning cycle, there isn't all that much standing around at a distance, somewhere in the 15 minutes the next to be cleaned need bringing forward, de labeling, cleaning on the outside, checking, last cleaned need stacking... Its pretty hands on.

You should be able to get PBW (or BBW from my local) delivered with what ever else you are ordering, I suspect it more about price.
Commercial brewing is about 80% cleaning and 20% making beer - suck it up, if your going to brew you will be doing plenty of it.
Mark

Sounds like a lot of work! Just fill them with cold water and napisan. Come back in the morning, job done.

 

[MHB]

Well your half right...
Mark