Bugger

[bignath]

Is it actually Napisan you buy? Or a homebrand equivalent? I read somewhere else on the forum to get the cheapest unscented napisan equivalent.....the other day in the supermarket I was in that aisle and started popping lids of to have a smell. The woolies homebrand one had a huge scent, almost knocked me out when i whiffed it. Went over to the actual Vanish Napisan brand stuff and was overwhelmed by the range..."Inwash & Soaker Oxiaction Intelligence", "Inwash & Soaker Plus Advanced", "Inwash & Soaker Oxiaction Crystal White". All Napisan brand. Then other brands such as White King, Dettol, Sard. Which do you buy?

I actually buy the proper Napisan brand. Not because i don't trust other brands or mixes, but due solely to my local hard nose rip off merchant c#$%s supermarket not having a great choice, and the prices usually favour the napisan for the same strength.

Bribie (i think) once posted the name of a product including the brand that had a higher sodium perc % than the Napisan brand, but i can't seem to locate the product in my shop, so i go with Napisan.

Napisan is apparently the only thing that seems to always be on special at my local.

 

[QldKev]

I actually buy the proper Napisan brand. Not because i don't trust other brands or mixes, but due solely to my local hard nose rip off merchant c#$%s supermarket not having a great choice, and the prices usually favour the napisan for the same strength.

Bribie (i think) once posted the name of a product including the brand that had a higher sodium perc % than the Napisan brand, but i can't seem to locate the product in my shop, so i go with Napisan.

Napisan is apparently the only thing that seems to always be on special at my local.

I use the Di-San from Aldi, it's stronger and it's only about half the cost of Napisan brand.

QldKev

 

[bignath]

I use the Di-San from Aldi, it's stronger and it's only about half the cost of Napisan brand.

QldKev

yeah i wonder if that was what Bribie was on about. He seems to like his Aldi stuff.

Also explains why i can't find it, as i don't have an Aldi in my ******** lovely regional tourist hotspot.

 

[QldKev]

Just found this. Looks like Di-san is his fall back.

 

[stux]

On the other hand, you know what you also never see? Anyone posting messages saying "I only ever used a rigorous process of cleaning with hot water and sodium perc, then all of a sudden one day I got a horrible case of infected beer". Having to prove that his regime works, lucky or not, should be no different to someone posting that it doesn't.

How about this,

I've only ever had an issue when something in the regime broke down.

2 examples

1) infected beer batch when the fermenter above it leaked, dribbling cider juices onto its lid, picking up god knows what in the fridge, and then dribbling into the lower fermenter. Nice infection... I posted the photo... moon colony.

2) 1 keg of a triple batch infected when the fermenter bag tore and spilled about 15L of beer into the unsanitized space between the bag and clean fermenter...

#2 is the exact proof you're looking for that unsantized surfaces increase infected beer chance. And the infection was quite subtle btw, but the two kegs from *inside* the bag, vs the keg from outside the bag taste completely different. I called the dodgy one a Weiss



Now its funny, but the correlation anecdotally, based on my personal sampling is 100% of my infections have been on brews where there has been a breakdown in 'sanitation protocol', conversely, I've never had an infection on brews where my standard sanitizing practises are used.

Good enough for me.

Maybe not for you

 

[wyane]

Gotta ask, how quick are you drinking these brews?
Either you have a big stock of beer, or have simply drank them before some of the infections have taken hold.
Maybe you should let them age to let those flavours mellow/colonies to grow. :chug:

Yeah, have a lot of bottles (and no, I don't drink 5 gallons of beer per week on my own. Possibly more like 4 ).
Generally I sample a bottle at 3 weeks, but most are consumed between 30 and 60 days. The exceptional stuff (really good or really bad) are held over for 100 days or so. I've had 2 batches taste like vinegar in 2 years. I've found that if they taste bad after 3 weeks there's only a very slight improvement, it's just my empty bottle stock and the feeling of shame that stops me tipping it out.

 

[wyane]

ok so for today's batch I cleaned the FV as per usual using sodium percarbonate. But this time I followed that with a good dousing of boiling water then lid on and shake until the steam stopped hissing.

This was routine before switching from bleach to Na-perc but I must have stopped due to the assumption that Na-perc is a cleaner and sanitiser.

edit: but of course all homebrew is "infected". it's just the degree right? and sensitivity of the flavour sensors or the imbiber.

 

[squirt in the turns]

but of course all homebrew is "infected". it's just the degree right?

I've often wondered about this statement. Don't commercial breweries face the same problems? Even if a bottled beer is pasteurized, it's still been "infected" (by something other than the intended yeast) at some point. Granted, as homebrewers we tend to brew and ferment in more infectious environments (dusty sheds, outside on a windy day, etc.), but even for a megabrewery with heaps of bling and clever CIP processes, absolute sterility of the wort from kettle to FV would be impossible.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

thats why they have pasteurisers, sterile filters, sterile fillers and guys who's job it is to go around sampling and testing for microbiological contamination.

The "all homebrew is infected" thing is just a parable to make you be careful and remind you that you aren't "sterilising" diddly. Sanitise carefully and you can and should be more than capable of making beer that will remain uninfected for months and years and indeed effectively for ever.

 

[thedragon]

I'm glad I'm not drinking the beer made by some of the brewers posting to this thread.

My limited 3 years of brewing and the support of much more experienced people from this forum and my lhbs has reinforced the importance of (in order):
1. Sanitisation
2. Temperature control

Perhaps the risks associated with taking shortcuts is worth it for some brewers, but as far as I'm concerned, if you spent the time planning your brew, buying the ingredients, then the 4 hours on brew day bringing it all together, you may as well do it properly.

As others have said, it's not helpful for new brewers to hear stories from the more "experienced" brewer that suggest that short cuts will give you good beer when it won't (quotation marks intentional - I've read the free tv thread).

I'm sure there are people that leave their kitchens dirty and looking like a pig sty, yet have never had food poisoning. The food they cook is probably not deadly, but probably doesn't taste great and it's no endorcement for living that way. I'm not saying that people who take sanitising short cuts are brewing in a pig sty, but the importance of being sanitary and the impact that it has on taste should not be underestimated.

I don't know.... maybe if your cranking out a quick K&k it's a risk worth taking. But if you ask me (and I know that no one has), AG or K&K, you should be proud of what your doing and do it properly: do it well and do it in a sanitised environment.

People, you could do a lot worse than to listen to Dr Smurto's advice.

Edit: spelling

 

[Nick JD]

I like to read the yeast companies rundown on how many bacteria and wild yeast are in the packet you just bought.

Not much ... but not none.

 

[manticle]

Pretty sure fermentis provide measured levels somewhere.

Will have a look

 

[thedragon]

Nick, I agree with you 100%, however it doesn't mean that people should endorse knocking out brews using unsanitised equipment as a matter of routine. I'm not saying that you've suggested this, you haven't, it's just that what some people have written cold be taken as saying that it is OK to do.

 

[Nick JD]

Nick, I agree with you 100%, however it doesn't mean that people should endorse knocking out brews using unsanitised equipment as a matter of routine. I'm not saying that you've suggested this, you haven't, it's just that what some people have written cold be taken as saying that it is OK to do.

I dismantled some fermenter taps the other day. How every batch that went through those fermenters wasn't infected is beyond me (pitching big whacks of healthy active yeast might be a lot of the reason) because they stank.

Like something anoxic. Like river mud.

We like to think we're clean, but making beer is more about presenting a capable army of yeast than it is about giving them a clean place to eat.

And yes, as clean as you can! But as my Nana used to say, Home should be clean enough to be healthy, and dirty enough to be happy.

 

[manticle]

Pretty sure fermentis provide measured levels somewhere.

Will have a look

This is from the fermentis saflager w-3470 pdf:

Typical analysis:
% dry weight: 94.0 96.5
Viable cells at packaging: > 6 x 109 / gramme
Total bacteria*: < 5 / ml
Acetic acid bacteria*: < 1 / ml
Lactobacillus*: < 1 / ml
Pediococcus*: < 1 / ml
Wild yeast non Saccharomyces*: < 1 / ml
Pathogenic micro-organisms: in accordance with regulation
*when dry yeast is pitched at 100 g/hl i.e. > 6 x 106 viable cells / ml

I believe most/all strains produced and packaged by fermentis have this information. Not sure about other brands.

 

[Nick JD]

This is from the fermentis saflager w-3470 pdf:

So those 5 bacterial cells ... what happens to them (let's include the million in your sanitised fermenter too)?

Do the yeast kill them? Do they live in conjunction with the yeast but only have such a small population that their byproducts are below the threshold of taste?

 

[DUANNE]

how many commercial brewerys dont sanitise? im sure if they believed that it was not needed they wouldnt do it, why waste money on sanitising everything and eroding youre profit margin when just a good clean will do the job?

 

[Nick JD]

how many commercial brewerys dont sanitise? im sure if they believed that it was not needed they wouldnt do it, why waste money on sanitising everything and eroding youre profit margin when just a good clean will do the job?

Some of them don't even have lids on their fermenters!

 

[bum]

Gladwrap?

 

[Beerisyummy]

Some of them don't even have lids on their fermenters!

Also, How do you sterilise a continuous fermenter when the original yeast stock has bacteria present?

I love all the old photos of the open top fermenters made from concrete and timber. I know the modern ones are all SS. but they say a lot for the point you're trying to make.

As a noob I'm quite aware that you are not suggesting a total lack of sanitation.