Brewing Myths Caused By Chinese Whispers

[PistolPatch]

Uh oh! Here we go with what I'm sure will be a controversial thread if people don't stop and think for a minute before replying.

I've whacked it in the all-grain section because it is the most advanced forum available and if there is any debate, I cannot see it as being of help to new brewers. Hopefully the outcome of any debate will be though.

How Much Knowledge Do We Pass On Without Really Knowing it For a Fact Ourselves?

I've certainly done it. Have you? I hear from someone who I know or respect that a certain thing is a fact. Therefore I pass it on. The more though that I brew and taste other brewer's beers, the more I suspect that some of these, 'facts,' are just hand me downs like I think I have been guilty of.

I'm going to put two examples at the end of this post but I can think of many more. Are there any things that you would like to question?

In the past I have started or been involved in some threads to encourage the testing of some basic brewing practices or even some advanced ones. These threads never really took off. Why is it that only a few people were keen to really test out large or small changes in a brewing procedure especially when we see so many advanced topics being discussed with huge authority on AHB?

Here are two things I suspect could be myths. One of these I am not sure of but have seen no proof. The other one, I think I'm pretty right...

Kit Brewers Should Ferment Ales at 18 Degrees: This is gospel but the best kit brews I have ever had were all done in uncontrolled fermentation conditions and these were usually quite hot. These beers had no kit twang at all which is something I never came close to in my kit days which were ultra-clean and controlled!!! InCider brewed his beers in a tin shed in QLD. Katie and Lloyd were under similiar conditions. Two other brewers (not on the forum) also fermented at higher and uncontrolled conditions.

So, should we really be emphasising to kit brewers to brew at 18? Maybe the kit yeast doesn't like 18? I don't know the answer here because I have never brewed at the high temps. (Well once I did and that banana beer was the best kit I brewed - lol!) Brewing a kit without twang is certainly one of the biggest brewing mysteries to me.

John Palmer's How to Brew is A Great Book for New Brewers: Maybe there are some new brewers out there that found JP a brilliant text. But for me, and I have been brewing for a little while now, I find most of it way too advanced. Take this section on pH. I mean really <_< How can that be useful to any beginner? I can give heaps of other links as examples. Other favourites recommended to beginners are Noonan's lager. OMG!

I really hate the way that Papazzian writes but it is a hell of a lot easier to understand than the above for a beginner.

Finally

So I have told many a kit brewer to brew at 18 but I don't personally know if this is really good advice - I've never done a side by side brew or multiple alternate brews at 18 and 25 which I think should be the bare minimum before I go sprouting off! And, if I went back to my first 100 posts, I'd probably find that I recommended How to Brew to some total newbie like myself at the time - lol!!!

Anyway, I'll put my flame suit on. The more advanced the forum, the more illogical the threads can often get so I'm fully expecting that this thread will get very quickly off-topic and out of control. But I really think that the above thoughts are worth considering before they are flamed down.

While we could quickly get side-tracked on defending certain ideas, the main question in this thread is pretty simple really. t is,

"Do you feel totally confident in all the advice you pass on?

 

[Pumpy]

Using the' No chill method' grows Botulisms in your beer !!!

 

[Whistlingjack]

Yes, I have my periods of self-doubt, too...

I'll just evoke the old adage...

"Ask two brewers the same question, and you'll get three different answers"

WJ

 

[Pumpy]

Using the' No chill method' grows Botulisms in your beer !!!

have I got the right idea PP or should i say it is infected by the 'Darrenlism virus ' !!

 

[kook]

Kit Brewers Should Ferment Ales at 18 Degrees: This is gospel but the best kit brews I have ever had were all done in uncontrolled fermentation conditions and these were usually quite hot. These beers had no kit twang at all which is something I never came close to in my kit days which were ultra-clean and controlled!!! InCider brewed his beers in a tin shed in QLD. Katie and Lloyd were under similiar conditions. Two other brewers (not on the forum) also fermented at higher and uncontrolled conditions.

So, should we really be emphasising to kit brewers to brew at 18? Maybe the kit yeast doesn't like 18? I don't know the answer here because I have never brewed at the high temps. (Well once I did and that banana beer was the best kit I brewed - lol!) Brewing a kit without twang is certainly one of the biggest brewing mysteries to me.

I personally think we should be advising kit brewers to throw that crap out! Any yeast that has been sitting under the lid of a can, exposed to ridiculous elements shouldn't really be used for brewing. Save it and make some bread with it! It once again goes back to the old saying "brewers make wort, yeast makes beer".

John Palmer's How to Brew is A Great Book for New Brewers: Maybe there are some new brewers out there that found JP a brilliant text. But for me, and I have been brewing for a little while now, I find most of it way too advanced. Take this section on pH. I mean really <_< How can that be useful to any beginner? I can give heaps of other links as examples. Other favourites recommended to beginners are Noonan's lager. OMG!

I'm guilty of this, as I have found his book incredibly helpful along the way. If all you want to do is make an all-grain beer, Chapter 1 and 19 (3rd edition) explain this in very simple, step by step terms with pictures. If you want to know the theory behind all this, the other chapters explain quite detailed subjects in simple terms. I haven't found a better (print) resource out there for beginners, but I'd love to see it if there is one.

"Do you feel totally confident in all the advice you pass on?"

At the end of the day I doubt someone is going to come and lynch me for it. You take this a little too seriously sometimes Pat

 

[InCider]

...that you need a 'thingy'*

InCider.


*Hydrometer

 

[Stuster]

"Do you feel totally confident in all the advice you pass on?

No, of course some of the advice I give will be wrong. But I hope that more of it is useful than not. And that the stuff that's not will hopefully be picked up by other posters or ignored by the OP.

I disagree with you about Palmer. It was something I read when I was a new brewer. Palmer worked for me and I was really happy to have read it not long after I started brewing. I do have a science background so it wasn't that hard for me to understand. And that's the thing - we'll recommend things that work for us. They may not know if they'll work for everybody else, but the great thing about forums like this is that posters will get different opinions, different ways to do it and can make up their own mind on which things work for them.

 

[schooey]

Interesting point you pose Pat. I guess I have always considered myself a mug brewer, and I will listen to just about anyone's opinion on anything brewing. I'm sure I still do some things that would make other brewers cringe, but I brew a few good beers that I more than enjoy drinking, and so do a lot of my friends and family.

I've been really lucky to meet a few like minded brewers who are happy to share what they have learned, right or wrong it seems to work for me, and also to have a really good guy at the LHBS (Thanks again MHB) to offer a more expert opinion. All in all they have only improved my efforts, according to how much I enjoy my end product anyway

I like to get feedback from people who I think are more in the know than me, and I'm thankful for it. I usually take it all on board and then decide whether I want to/can afford/have the nouse/can be arsed making the changes for the benefit to be gained, Usually I will, unless its a lot of pain for really not that much gain in my book.

What I'm getting at, is sometimes the theory is black and white, sometimes it just comes down to personal taste. It's the old 80/20 rule at work again. 20 percent of your assets (time, knowledge, money etc) will cover off 80 percent of the process, then then getting the last 20 percent perfect will take upo 80 percent of your assets to the point where the last 5% of perfection will cost you a shitload of time, money and headhurt for what benefit?

 

[goatherder]

Myth 1 - kit brewers should brew ales at 18 deg.

Yeast health and management is very important to brewing. Many ale yeasts will give you unpleasantness when fermented hot. I've experienced this first hand. The advice to new brewers is generally "buy a decent packet of yeast from your LHBS instead of using the stuff under the lid of the tin, take good care of it and don't ferment it too hot. 18 is a good place to start but feel free to experiment yourself" This has nothing to do with being a kit brewer, it applies to all forms of the art. I believe it's been established that "kit twang" is not a product of fermentation - it's from the malt extract and is related to how fresh the extract is. Anyway, I'll leave it to you to do a decent experiment - buy a couple of kits the same, ferment them at the same time with one at 18 and one at 25. Do a proper blind tasting and see which one you like best.

Myth 2 - John Palmer's How to Brew is A Great Book for New Brewers

I feel it is an excellent book for any brewer. If you are a new brewer and you are skipping straight to the mash pH topic then maybe your eyes will glaze over. Deal with it and learn about yeast and sanitation instead. Funnily enough, Palmer covers these subjects too. The mark of a good reference book is that you can keep picking it up and learning from again and again. Palmer's book hits this mark for me. As for Noonan, it's certainly not a beginners book in my opinion. I'm not sure if anyone disagrees with this, I'd be surprised if they did.

I don't see the need to dumb everything down for beginners. Everyone who brews will try to learn as much as they are prepared to in the quest for good beer. If they stop at brewing kits at 25 deg and that's what makes them happy then fine. If they want to go further then they might need to actually learn a bit about the process. Plenty of brewers do and find the learning part very fulfilling. The bottom line is that some bits of brewing are complex and if you want to understand them you'll need to learn a bit of chemistry and biology.

And yes, I feel very confident in the advice I pass on.

 

[Ross]

Myth 1 - kit brewers should brew ales at 18 deg.

Yeast health and management is very important to brewing. Many ale yeasts will give you unpleasantness when fermented hot. I've experienced this first hand. The advice to new brewers is generally "buy a decent packet of yeast from your LHBS instead of using the stuff under the lid of the tin, take good care of it and don't ferment it too hot. 18 is a good place to start but feel free to experiment yourself" This has nothing to do with being a kit brewer, it applies to all forms of the art. I believe it's been established that "kit twang" is not a product of fermentation - it's from the malt extract and is related to how fresh the extract is. Anyway, I'll leave it to you to do a decent experiment - buy a couple of kits the same, ferment them at the same time with one at 18 and one at 25. Do a proper blind tasting and see which one you like best.

Myth 2 - John Palmer's How to Brew is A Great Book for New Brewers

I feel it is an excellent book for any brewer. If you are a new brewer and you are skipping straight to the mash pH topic then maybe your eyes will glaze over. Deal with it and learn about yeast and sanitation instead. Funnily enough, Palmer covers these subjects too. The mark of a good reference book is that you can keep picking it up and learning from again and again. Palmer's book hits this mark for me. As for Noonan, it's certainly not a beginners book in my opinion. I'm not sure if anyone disagrees with this, I'd be surprised if they did.

I don't see the need to dumb everything down for beginners. Everyone who brews will try to learn as much as they are prepared to in the quest for good beer. If they stop at brewing kits at 25 deg and that's what makes them happy then fine. If they want to go further then they might need to actually learn a bit about the process. Plenty of brewers do and find the learning part very fulfilling. The bottom line is that some bits of brewing are complex and if you want to understand them you'll need to learn a bit of chemistry and biology.

And yes, I feel very confident in the advice I pass on.

Couldn't have said it better... +1

cheers Ross

 

[Simon W]

Palmer's book(the free online version - main reason I recommend it) is set out linearly, ie: start at the beginning.
If a beginner(likely to be Can or Partial) is reading the chapter on pH (chapter 15), then I think they're hopelessly lost.
Palmer's book is not advanced, it's thorough, which is good for me because if I get into trouble somewhere, the information is there for me.

When I started I found the lack of how's and why's in the majority of books to be extremely frustrating.
When I found Palmer's book I was so chuffed I read it from cover to cover and still re-read whole sections every now and then.

Horses for courses I guess, If it's not for you, so be it, It's fine for me and I'll continue to recommend it to newbies and let them decide whether it's for them or not.
If you can provide a link to a better single source of free, easily navigable information, please post it.

Edit: I take too long to type, nice post goatherder.

 

[Sammus]

Myth 1 - kit brewers should brew ales at 18 deg.

Yeast health and management is very important to brewing. Many ale yeasts will give you unpleasantness when fermented hot. I've experienced this first hand. The advice to new brewers is generally "buy a decent packet of yeast from your LHBS instead of using the stuff under the lid of the tin, take good care of it and don't ferment it too hot. 18 is a good place to start but feel free to experiment yourself" This has nothing to do with being a kit brewer, it applies to all forms of the art. I believe it's been established that "kit twang" is not a product of fermentation - it's from the malt extract and is related to how fresh the extract is. Anyway, I'll leave it to you to do a decent experiment - buy a couple of kits the same, ferment them at the same time with one at 18 and one at 25. Do a proper blind tasting and see which one you like best.

Myth 2 - John Palmer's How to Brew is A Great Book for New Brewers

I feel it is an excellent book for any brewer. If you are a new brewer and you are skipping straight to the mash pH topic then maybe your eyes will glaze over. Deal with it and learn about yeast and sanitation instead. Funnily enough, Palmer covers these subjects too. The mark of a good reference book is that you can keep picking it up and learning from again and again. Palmer's book hits this mark for me. As for Noonan, it's certainly not a beginners book in my opinion. I'm not sure if anyone disagrees with this, I'd be surprised if they did.

I don't see the need to dumb everything down for beginners. Everyone who brews will try to learn as much as they are prepared to in the quest for good beer. If they stop at brewing kits at 25 deg and that's what makes them happy then fine. If they want to go further then they might need to actually learn a bit about the process. Plenty of brewers do and find the learning part very fulfilling. The bottom line is that some bits of brewing are complex and if you want to understand them you'll need to learn a bit of chemistry and biology.

And yes, I feel very confident in the advice I pass on.

Two thumbs up. I've always wanted to start a thread like this.



And as a reply to some other members, can this please not turn into a no chill debate. Theres no denying the possibilty of a Clostridium botulinum infection in a no chill brew which can eventually lead to botulism, even if that possibility is an extremely small one given the conditions. It's simply a fact that some people choose to take the risk and others don't.

 

[roger mellie]

Chinese Whispers - mmm lemme think

I got told once that US56 was a crap yeast.

That must have been a chinese whisper. <_<

RM

 

[Kai]

Couldn't have said it better... +1

cheers Ross

+2

18-22 for kit yeasts and here is always a great spot to start.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Personaly I have never read Palmers book so I cant comment on the content but I know its not a recommended text for brewing studies.Its a case of horses for courses.If a new brewer can work out whats going on from the text all well and good.We all learn at different levels so if it teaches you what you want to know then its valuable.From what I have seen on this thread it may be confusing to some.Another storm in a tea cup as far as I can see.Better to brew than to debate the worth of a book.In the end you are "all" right just depends on were your coming from.Oil on the water.
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

ROFL! Haven't had a chance to read all the above fully but I have read a few over the phone to one person who I know, KNOWS about brewing. It ended up that we were both falling about!

This brewer has qualifications falling out their ears and the other brewers who have been through the same training refer to this brewer when they have a problem - something I only know about second-hand. So, I think I have proof that my original question wasn't too stupid. I can see that a few replies above also thankfully reflect this :icon_cheers:

I can also see that several of the above answers are stupid if read in context to the original question as it is a question which begs proof.

As for Palmer and waiting until Chapter 15, I just looked up Chapter 1. People say I write long posts. Find one post I have written as long as this and gives less practical, easy to read advice. And, that is just page 1 of Palmer!

[For all you Palmer enthusiuasts, I just had a flick through further into Palmer. Have just found one very good section for beginners I think on a quick read. Mind you, it is only one and to be fair, I think I should link it....

Sorry, got distracted but seriously just spent 10 minutes trying to find the one clear bit that I have seen Palmer write. Anyone else want to have a crack at linking it? It actually was very well-written.]

Anyway, work tomorrow so I'll leave you guys to this debate now and am unsure if I'll get back here soon. But, please bear in mind the original question/s. I can only see 3 or 4 good replies so far. There was one particularly good one and no one has backed him up - the only one so far since I started writing this to offer any proof!

Interesting stuff!
Pat

P.S. The main reason we fell about laughing tonight on the phone was that a guy that has heaps of articles written in the Australian brewing world, posted that he increased efficiency to (well, I can't even say the figure as it is so embarrassing.) It turned out that this guy measured all his grains equally and used a scoop to do his measuring - no scales!!!! Stories like this and personal experience make me question everything. Yesterday, I saw, not sure if on a search or in a recent thread that someone had posted a 5% increase in efficiency using a certain method and this was after just one brew! As a home brewer you are doing damn well to measure within 5% let alone over one brew!!!!

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

ROFL! Haven't had a chance to read all the above fully but I have read a few over the phone to one person who I know, KNOWS about brewing. It ended up that we were both falling about!

This brewer has qualifications falling out their ears and the other brewers who have been through the same training refer to this brewer when they have a problem - something I only know about second-hand. So, I think I have proof that my original question wasn't too stupid. I can see that a few replies above also thankfully reflect this :icon_cheers:

I can also see that several of the above answers are stupid if read in context to the original question as it is a question which begs proof.

As for Palmer and waiting until Chapter 15, I just looked up Chapter 1. People say I write long posts. Find one post I have written that gives less info than this That is Page 1 of Palmer!

Work tomorrow so I'll leave you guys to this debate now and am unsure if I'll get back here soon. But, please bear in mind the original question/s. I can only see 3 good replies so far. There was one particularly good one and no one has backed him up - the only one so far since I started writing this to offer any proof!

Interesting stuff!
Pat

P.S. The main reason we fell about laughing tonight on the phone was that a guy that has heaps of articles written in the Australian brewing world, posted that he increased efficiency to (well, I can't even say the figure as it is so embarrassing.) It turned out that this guy measured all his grains equally and used a scoop to do his measuring - no scales!!!! Stories like this and personal experience make me question everything. Yesterday, I saw, not sure if on a search or in a recent thread that someone had posted a 5% increase in efficiency using a certain method and this was after just one brew! As a home brewer you are doing damn well to measure within 5% let alone over one brew!!!!

Come on Pat .Can I increase my efficiency to 100% by add two more scoops? Tongue in the left side of cheek.There is a certian amount of urban myths out there.People getting better than lab stats? I wonder.Only the figures will tell.
GB

 

[JasonY]

I always think of references like Palmer's as a solid foundation that is based on the fundamentals from which you can get a great understanding of brewing to quite a practical or detailed level. It provides a good basis to help you evaluate differing techniques such as no chill, rims, herms, BIAB, meditative brewing or whatever floats your boat. I will alwas recommend it, it is one of the best references out there. You don't have to read and understand everything in it thats for sure.

Some of the worst beers I have tasted were kit beers fermented >25degC, I don't care what you say I will tell them to stick <24degC. Not sure where 18degC came from I would always just say <24 and above 18degC.

I feel happy when I pass on information, I can only pass on what I know and I try to understand things as much as I can. On the flip-side if I hear some crazy theory I am not going to take it as gospel unless I do some further research.

 

[Kai]

This brewer has qualifications falling out their ears and the other brewers who have been through the same training refer to this brewer when they have a problem - something I only know about second-hand. So, I think I have proof that my original question wasn't too stupid. I can see that a few replies above also thankfully reflect this :icon_cheers:

I can also see that several of the above answers are stupid if read in context to the original question as it is a question which begs proof.

Where's the proof in your first post, pat? The best you can state is that you've tasted many good beers that have been fermented warm and that's great. I've tasted plenty of good ones done at 18C too, and 19, 20, 21, 22 and even higher! Regardless to say though, when you get up in the mid to high 20's you run the risk of less desirable fermentation products. As goatherder has already pointed out (and ross +1ed), "kit twang" is not a product of high temperature fermentations. It's a combination of things including oxidised LME and poor yeast health and as such definitely not limited to warm ferment temps. Warm temps are more likely to give you those lovely hot alcohols that taste like crap and leave you feeling crap in the morning. That doesn't mean you can't make a good beer at 25 or higher, it's just far less likely. There's not really much debating that.

As for Palmer and waiting until Chapter 15, I just looked up Chapter 1. People say I write long posts. Find one post I have written as long as this and gives less practical, easy to read advice. And, that is just page 1 of Palmer!

[For all you Palmer enthusiuasts, I just had a flick through further into Palmer. Have just found one very good section for beginners I think on a quick read. Mind you, it is only one and to be fair, I think I should link it....

So you have found a chapter that makes Palmer seem worthwhile, eh? It's a great resource for the new brewer because it's got material for beginning and more advanced brewers. That and the fact that it's freely available online means I disagree that it's a poor text to recommend. Despite it being free I bought a copy of it myself and then gave it away to a fellow brewer.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Perhaps people are getting too caught up in Pats examples... mind you, he asked for and got it when he posted them.

I think his actual question is a good one though. Witness the recent debate about whether you need to aerate worts into which you are going to pitch fresh dried yeast.

Or that HSA exists

or that a fine crush will result in Tannin extraction

or that extract twang is inherent to extract beers and cant be avoided

or... or ... or ...

Nothing wrong at all with occasionally looking at what we all "know" and seeing if the database needs a little tweaking...

PS - I believe that kit brews will turn out better, more often if the temperatures are kept lower than the instructions on the tin, but mainly I believe that the tin yeast should be tossed and better yeast used at it recommended range

I also believe that Palmer is a great resource for a brewer who is interested in getting into the hobby (and those of us who already are), I don't however think its a whole lot of use to hand to a potential brewer who is about to wield the tin opener on their first kit beer... once they start to love the hobby and want to do more and better... then Palmer.