Brewing Myths Caused By Chinese Whispers

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Here's another one that's frequently trotted out as gospel:

Fly sparging will always give better efficiency than batch sparging.
 
"Throw away the kit yeast"

This one probably has its roots in the Supermarket kits. It is no longer an absolute. Some kits (ESB 3kg, Coopers Premium etc to name a few) do in fact come with specially selected quality yeasts. So for me it is a 'sometimes' that it gets the flick.

Cheers,
Greg
 
I really hate the way that Papazzian writes but it is a hell of a lot easier to understand than the above for a beginner.

When I started brewing, there was no local club that I could consult. The only books I had were Papazian's first two, and that was it. Although Papazian has a style of writing that puts you at ease and gives you the confidence to try things for yourself, I really hate some of the (mis)information in his books.

Some examples:

1. Homebrewers can't use twist-off bottles. I'd like to kick him in the nuts for this one. I'm Canadian and the "normal" beer bottle here is a 341ml long neck brown twist-off. Unless I fork out $$$ for imports with pop tops, twist-offs are the only bottles available here. What really gets me is when Canadians send entries down to US competitions. The judges will often take one look at the bottle and mentally ask "why did this retard use a twist-off? Everyone knows they don't work." This equates to rather poor marks for the entry and some pretty snarky remarks regarding the bottle. Twist-offs have a flat mouth which means a rather large contact area with the cap = better seal. Pop tops have a curved mouth which means a rather small contact area with the cap = poorer seal.

2. Ol' Chuck's advice that you should just pour boiling hot wort into a glass carboy. What the hell was he thinking? Thermal shock anyone?

3. His "zapap" lauter tun design. It was my first lauter tun, and for the 15-20 batches I used it, I never had a runoff that didn't stick.

I think that for a beginner who has support from other experienced brewers, Papazian's books are fine. The experienced brewers can temper the contents of the book so that the newbie doesn't try dangerous things like dumping hot wort into a cold glass carboy. For inexperienced brewers without support, Papazian's books just aren't worth the risk.
 
PP.
the 2 examples you mentioned are not myths they are recommendations.......

Though HSA, No chill, and BIAB I will not give any advice on..... any more..... B)

I am confident though that 95% of my advice will improve your final product.
Reason is-> it has improved my brewing.

Though I will not claim it is the only way.
Glad to see you back in full force, PAT. :)
 
;) matti. Only have time to watch here now while chewing on Fent's popcorn - lol! Great to see that you and a few others haven't missed the point though - donya!
 
Sparging too hot will cause tannin extraction....BS


Batz
 
Here's another one that's frequently trotted out as gospel:

Fly sparging will always give better efficiency than batch sparging.

Always - gives better efficiency on my kit, with all malts.

A lot of myths are perpetuated due to the fact that brewers make such blanket statements.

Personaly I have never read Palmers book so I cant comment on the content but I know its not a recommended text for brewing studies.Its a case of horses for courses.If a new brewer can work out whats going on from the text all well and good.We all learn at different levels so if it teaches you what you want to know then its valuable.From what I have seen on this thread it may be confusing to some.Another storm in a tea cup as far as I can see.Better to brew than to debate the worth of a book.In the end you are "all" right just depends on were your coming from.Oil on the water.
GB

I agree, doubt JP ever intended his book be used as a study text. Surely any reasonable home brewer would realise that technical content contained in books such as palmers and articles from Graham Saunders etc are only of benefit to those who can grasp/understand the processes. There would be a vast variation of experience within the homebrewing community, I believe that is a given. All study text is dependent upon the explanation/assistance of lecturers and practical experience. Fully understanding technical text is difficult unless one has some understanding of the process due to related study or training. Hopefully those finding the going difficult with texts such as Palmers etc would seek out some help from an experienced source. None of this stuff is rocket science, sure you would all agree, it's all a piece of cake - once you have done it, surely water treatment is the same. Also to be discussing water treatment and newcomers is a little futile.

Glad to see that Pat has found himself a guru. I've received a lot of help and information from this forum and from individuals and professionals, all have helped me in learning about brewing, and all the help has been equally valuable.

Screwy
 
;) matti. Only have time to watch here now while chewing on Fent's popcorn - lol! Great to see that you and a few others haven't missed the point though - donya!

oi we have discussed this! you can only eat popcorn if your watching from the sidelines and not in the actual making of the movie :p

Throw the kit yeast away (unless the kit is supplied with "specialty" yeast) and dont ferment over 25c.

Sometimes shit happens, i've been brewing for close on 5 years now (3years kits/partials, 2 years AG) and in all that time i have not gotten of my lazy arse and purchased a ferm fridge or a fridgemate. Melb gets hot, my brew room gets hot sometimes i try and Kombat it (the heat) and sometimes i dont. Some of my beers turn out a little more fruity than others and sometimes they dont.

Best example i have is the kolsch i did for the last swap - very very unforgiving style of beer to brew in 25-30c temp's. But i've never poured someone a beer that was undrinkable - never...so thats good enough for me.

I also know someone else who ferments uncontrolled and he's yet to poor me an undrinkable beer.

That said im purchasing a fridgemate soon.

As for palmers - who needs that when i have this place to ask questions. :D
 
Kit Brewers Should Ferment Ales at 18 Degrees: This is gospel but the best kit brews I have ever had were all done in uncontrolled fermentation conditions and these were usually quite hot. These beers had no kit twang at all which is something I never came close to in my kit days which were ultra-clean and controlled!!! InCider brewed his beers in a tin shed in QLD. Katie and Lloyd were under similiar conditions. Two other brewers (not on the forum) also fermented at higher and uncontrolled conditions.

Actually the advice should be the same for everyone ... brew at 18C if you want to miss out on a lot of the yeast flavour profile.
 
No, of course some of the advice I give will be wrong. But I hope that more of it is useful than not. And that the stuff that's not will hopefully be picked up by other posters or ignored by the OP. ;)

Hey Stuster ... HWMBO is drinking the BPA you suggested I make with my westmalle yeast.
Now that was good advice. It turned out really well. Its a really nice style!

myth 1: no chill will kill you
It was no-chill! and HWMBO looks pretty healthy to me.

myth 2: pilsener based beers will stink of DMS if no-chilled
No smell of vegies in this beer!

myth 3: no chilling in the kettle will kill you even faster!
see myth 1.
 
Ok,

Here's my dodgy testing results related to temperature of kits.

Back when I was doing kit beers I brewed one kit which stayed below 20C for the whole time and another that went right up to 30c. Same kits, same yeast. The temp was the difference between the two, well, apart from the usual unknowns in some pretty dodgy experiments. They both tasted pretty similar. The hotter one was more fruity, more flavour to it. Even I could tell it and I hadn't been brewing for all that long so didn't know what to look for. The biggest difference between the two was the day after. The headache from the hotter batch was a shocker. It took me a while to finally understand what was happening. After a little research I discovered that yeast produces fusels at higher temps and these cause headaches. Well I had a perfect example of that !

How's that for an example of the 'pitch at 18' myth ? Maybe the recommendation is 18 so that you don't produce a headache beer.

I've also just finished brewing two batches of an english mild with the difference being the fermentation temperature. All the literature said the english yeasts need around 22c to produce the fruit flavours. One was brewed at 18 and the other 22 with a Wyeast Whitbread yeast. This wasn't a split batch unfortunately so the test parameters weren't identical for each batch. They were reasonably close though. The difference. Warmer batch is more flavourful with more fruitiness to it. I got SWMBO to compare the two and she reckoned the warmer batch tastes better. Can't argue with SWMBO. She knows nothing about beer. I simply asked her which one she preferred the taste of. Didn't tell her which was which though.

As PP originally indicated, try some experiments for yourself and see what results you get. If you get the same results as the books, well 'great', if not, then you have a question as to 'why'. Even if your results don't match the 'expected' results at least you have brewed and improved your knowledge/technique/etc, even just a tiny bit.

gary
 
I think the biggest problem is that homebrewers often don't really follow the scientific method.

They change 12 things at once but claim to know the one thing that made this beer better than the others.

Taste can also be affected by what you know about the beer. Blind tasting is essential.
 
1.Since going to controlled ferment, I have had to replace the missing fruity flavours with hop additions.
2.All malt gets you a better tasting beer. Again having to add hops to balance to my taste liking.
So by telling every new person to ferment @ 18deg and only use all malt and no dextrose may not be to everyones liking.
 
I think the biggest problem is that homebrewers often don't really follow the scientific method.

Amen.

My most noticeable leap in quality came when I managed to sort out my astringency problem by adjusting the pH of my water. Once I sorted that out, I was able to concentrate on recipes - varying one ingredient from batch to batch to see its effect. Having my HERMS definitely helps too, as it eliminates quite a few variables because it is completely consistent time & time again.

At the moment I'm conducting an experiment regarding lagers & warm fermentation temperatures. I'm repeating the experiment 3x with 2 different yeasts to make sure that what I'm observing is true and not a fluke.
 
Chuck Kit Yeast
Dont agree. I stash it away to make bread with! Unless its a top quality yeast (muntons etc) I wouldnt think about using kit yeast in my beer. Life is too short not to go out and use the best yeast available. and theres so many types to play with.

Palmers a need to read for beginners
I got to say Im not wrapped with Palmers. Yeah its ok but as a real simpole beginners K&K book, the brewcraft book (ignore all the product placement) is quite good for a brand new brewer. Palmers should be read at some stage in the brewing process, but could be a little daunting for someone who wants to do K&K. I agree with Thirsty Boy. Actually AHB is better than most of the printed resources ive read.

Temp doesnt matter
Crap! temp and better yeast are the 2 easiest and best tips you can give someone (and sanatisation, so 3). The K&K I brewed 10 years ago I now know why they tasted the way they did (bloody Coopers instructions). Even now I can tell the differance in my own beers if the temp hasnt been in the best range for that yeast. Note I say temp is yeast specific, obviously some beers require a higher temp (belgians etc) and yes some use sugar (another chinese whisper topic).

Extract Twang
I have never tasted extract twang in any of my extract beers. Kit yes but pure DME no. my extract beers are the cleanest tasting beers Ive made. I have also made a couple of cracking K&K with no twang or 'typical' kit flavours. It can be avoided.

Dont use sugar
Yes avoid table sugar as a fermentable unless you know what your doing with it. Even then it doesnt feature as the main fermentable (Im fairly sure).

Pistol Patch just rants and raves :p
Personally I find some of PP posts very informative and worth reading., yes they are long and sometimes I cant be arsed reading it, so I dont. if you dont like it dont read it! christ how many of you can tell me that your Uni text books werent long and sometimes boring or didnt interest you? you stil read them cause they were useful.

wow this is such a monday morning topic.
 
Well I would start by saying that it shouldn't be 18, I usually say 'as close to 20 as you can manage...', but of course it depends on the beer and the yeast...

Anyways, what I was really going to say was that I think the issue goes even wider.
I don't think there is a single brewing 'fact' that I haven't heard or read of examples where someone is doing exactly not that and brewing ok. Maybe not as well they can or should, but producing drinkable beer.
There are definitely things that I think are more definite or closer to true but there seem to be very very few absolutes in this game...

So maybe the phrase should be "All brewing myths are false, but some are more false than others"...

Something to think about anyways...
 
Interesting topic.

I think it's great that PP is asking the question. Are we passing on information that we know to be true, or just what we have been told which may be wrong?

The answer you give will depend on where you are at, how experienced you think you are. This is my view as a fairly inexperienced brewer. There are two opposing poles, and a range of possibilities in between. Believe what you are told or read - or ditch everything and set about proving everything yourself.

Ideally, we would believe nothing, and set about proving it all ourselves. But this is a mountain of work, built up over thousands of years. The other end of the spectrum is just as impossible, because some of the information is so contradictory, that you cannot accept it all.


Somewhere in the middle then - pick your battles and prove or disproove certain aspects for yourself.

Unfortunatly, I am nowhere near a good enough brewer to be able to prove even the basic assumptions. I cannot get a consistent brew from one to the next. There are too many variables that I do not have sufficient control over yet. So maybe I should leave this debate to the more experienced brewers. But I'd even say that most brewers do not have the right equipment to get difinitive results

Which leaves me having to trust at least some of what I am told or read. Then, when my father in law says that he needs a heating pad to brew his beers when he lives in central queensland, do I correct him or not? In that case, I said that he may want to brew a bit cooler than 28 degrees, and referred him to Palmer.

As others have said, the best way for me or any other intermediate brewers, is to listen to everything the more experienced people have to say, read whatever I can, listen to the odd basic brewing podcast and use some of this information to make better beer.

When the information is contradictory, maybe this is the time for experimenting. But this leads me back to my problem of too many uncontrolled variables. I can still experiment, though, I just cannot be completely sure of the results.

Perhaps this is a best way of experimenting for me at the moment. Muddle through it, trying ideas and seeing what works and what doesn't. But in the end, all I'll be able to say is that some technique in the past may have made better beer for me. I still won't be able to tell someone "Do this because it always works and it is right."


As for Palmer, I'm a big fan. It's not a narrative that is supposed to be read from cover to cover (although many people, including myself have). It's a reference book that I can refer to about a specific aspect. It is also great to cross reference and confirm or debunk what someone may have told me.


So if I had to make one point in relation to PP's initial post it would be this. Don't be afraid to pass on information that you are fairly confident about, even if you don't know it to be absolute truth. I have only got to where I am today thanks to the wealth of information. Obvious misinformation is quickly shot down by the peer-review nature of this forum. Less clear cut information - well that's up to the user to decide. There is no perfect system in this imperfect world. For me, getting things right by slow degrees is all part of the process, and part of the fun.

But at the same time (okay, two points), I would encourage experienced brewers who can control all of the variables except the one that they are testing, to experiment away, and add their findings to the pool of information. Then I can try it, see if it works for me, see if it suits me and decided whether or not to add it to my process. Batch sparging in an esky and no chill (yes, I'm a fan) are two examples of this.


Cheers,
Wrenny
 
Myth ? Dont brew the kit can contents with sugar only.

I did this only once and didn't like the thin flavour and it was brewing sugar too.
Then I met someone at the Coles homebrew counter who has been brewing with just the kit and table sugar for years and has a stock of 300 longnecks of the stuff.

So I don't think I have busted that myth?

I have found Palmer's book very useful and on Wednesday will be brewing for the first time without using the can contents.Just a simple ale using -LDME,Dextrose,Maltodextrin,500g of a few grains ,hops and US05.However I have found AussieHomeBrewer even more helpful.

Myth ? Bottled brews improve with age.

I think this is true on my K&K brews up to six months.I left a few bottles for 10 months and they were past their best.

Myth not busted in all cases ?
 

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