Brewing For A Restaurant

[dj1984]

A restaurant has asked me too brew beer for them.

What is the legal side of this?

If i brew at home..... or if he buys a brewery and i brew on site for him?

 

[brettprevans]

there's heaps of legal issues associated with this. its basicly not worth doing. unless he sets up the brewery does all the legals etc and you operate as an employee of his. but then there's work cover etc etc, liquor licencing, food laws, etc etc etc.

 

[wakkatoo]

disclaimer - I know nothing of the process, just my views:

There would be all sorts of licences required, taxes to be paid, permissions sought from all sorts of government organisations. I'd first of all check with the ATO and go from there. Perhaps talk to a local micro?

As glamourous as its sounds to us homebrewers, once you get talking to the micro brewers (as I did at the Beer&Brewer Expo back in March), they are very supportive of another brewer entering the market, but always warn it doesn't make much $$. One micro in particular commented they preferred homebrewing as doing it commercially took all the fun out of it (except the bit of seeing your beer on a bottle shop shelf).

If I ever did it, I would want to be in a position to still be able to do it for the joy, be able to keep it really small and ever changing, and not rely on it for my income (therefore not be forced to grow). Put simply, I'd accept the fact it was gonna cost me money, not make it.

Best of luck with it - tread carefully and tick all boxes.

edit - mi spellink

 

[Scruffy]

Unless you 'give it away', it's really not worth getting into - it's bad enough in the UK, but forget it here, major $$...

There may be some 'creative' people around however... :icon_cheers:

 

[peas_and_corn]

It's crazy- getting liquor licences, registering to pay excise on the alcohol, getting permission from the council to brew commercially on your premises, all sorts of safety legislation, making sure that your ABV is exactly on so that the ATO doesn't accuse you of cheating them on exice... the list of stuff to take care of goes on and on. I remember hearing that one person took a year to sort out the paperwork before selling the first pint...

 

[Cocko]

Unless you 'give it away', it's really not worth getting into - it's bad enough in the UK, but forget it here, major $$...

There may be some 'creative' people around however... :icon_cheers:

Thats what I was thinking, would there be some loop hole as far as 'Giving it away' goes?

Buy the glass, get it filled with beer for free?

I have no idea, just a thought but all sounds to hard to go commercial pre-lotto winning!!

 

[dj1984]

The guy was going too use the beer for functions as a package, i told him he would be better off brewing at his restaurant.

he is not looking for big scale brewing only around 100L a time

 

[marlow_coates]

The guys to talk to would be the 4 blokes who started the Kooinda Microbrewery.

They commercially upscaled their homebrew system, and went through council approval to brew at one of their homes.
Read an article on it in Beer and Brewer Mag.

Seemed like a lot of work, but if it's what your after they may be useful to chat too, depending on what sort of micro operation you wanted to mimic.

They comment or post on here sometimes, and seem nice enough.

I reckon it would be such a pain in the arse as to almost not be worth it, unless it was your life long dream.

Good luck,

Marlow

 

[HoppingMad]

Not an impossible proposition but if the restaurant has some licensing in place it's sure to make your life easier.
Some stuff regarding starting a micro brewery has been covered in a bunch of other threads here (most saying don't do it),
but I think you'll find that most info relates to eastern states, not SA.

NSW would be the hardest state to do what you're proposing, but SA I would think would be a hell of a lot more simple.

Check out the licensing requirements for getting a producers licence here:
SA Producers License

I had some great links on microbrewing.com.au and what to consider when starting up but sadly that site now appears to be closed.

One of biggest problem in terms of profitability for micros in this country is excise tax. By way of example (and quoting old figures) Mountain Goat sells a 50L keg to a publican for $190. 26% wholesale price is taken in excise ($50.24). $139.76 remains to cover fixed costs. Boutique wineries by comparison get more tax breaks. The system is quite unfair and many are lobbying to fix it.

Your best bet finding out what is involved would be to talk to a pub brewer or micro near you and see how tricky it was for them. In Victoria Microbrewers like Mountain Goat are willing to mentor people starting out - so it can't hurt to see if there is any goodwill in your state.. As others have mentioned there are health and planning issues at a council level that also have to be satisfied.

Another option that many go for is to contract brew until they can afford to purchase equipment that adheres to commercial standards - I think you'll find a stove and a couple of pots won't get through regulatory hoops!

Good luck with your idea There are plenty that will say it can't be done, but if you don't try you'll never know.

Hopper .

 

[MarkBastard]

IMO if you're brewing beer and serving it at the same physical place, you should be given MASSIVE incentives. Brewpubs should be highly encouraged. It's a shame that common sense doesn't mean shit to the politicians though.

 

[staggalee]

A restaurant has asked me too brew beer for them.

What is the legal side of this?

If i brew at home..... or if he buys a brewery and i brew on site for him?

Alltho there`s the occassional bloke saying he`s brewing for a wedding, this is the first time I`ve seen brewing for a restaurent.
Out of interest, which beer and recipe might you use?
{can`t help with the legal ins and outs I`m afraid, but interested in what you think Joe Citizen would pay for?}

stagga.
]

 

[bigfridge]

The guy was going too use the beer for functions as a package, i told him he would be better off brewing at his restaurant.

he is not looking for big scale brewing only around 100L a time

Volumes etc don't matter, but you would need a producers license and Council approval - but these rules are different in each state so you need to check with your local authorities. What you need to realise is that you are wanting to set up a commercial premises to produce food. This involves all sorts of things such as complying with fire regulations and disposal of trade waste.

One thing that is common is the Federal Government's ATO excise legislation. You will need to comply with all their rules and after you have paid $2,000 per vessel to calibrate the volume and spent 6 months working through all their requirements (such as criminal and financial checks) I would say that you would be producing the most expensive pint around.

As an example, these are the forms that you need to complete

- Application for excise registration
- Application for licence to manufacture alcoholic beverages
- Application for licence to store alcohol use this form if you intend to store your beer on a different site to where it was manufactured
- Consent to obtain information – both you and anyone who helps you manage or control your premises
- Consent to criminal history record check

You will also need to prove how you will keep records on:

- the raw materials you use to manufacture the beer
- how you make the beer (recipe sheets)
- how you ferment and store the beer
- how much beer you’ve manufactured
- how you package the beer
- how much beer you’ve sold or disposed of
- how much beer has been lost or wasted during or after manufacture
- how and where your beer has been moved (deliveries, receipts and dispatch).
- keep your stock records accurate
- find any omissions or errors in your stock records
- find out if you have any security issues (such as theft)
- find any problems with your plant and equipment.

If you get this far, then you will need to pass a site inspection where you will need to prove to the ATO inspectors that you have adequate physical security (locks on windows and doors, key registers etc), show examples of your purchase orders, invoices, stock records etc.

If you are still interested then see ATO Handbook

A far more cost effective way would be to contract brew the beer at premises that are already licensed.


Dave

 

[dj1984]

Volumes etc don't matter, but you would need a producers license and Council approval - but these rules are different in each state so you need to check with your local authorities. What you need to realise is that you are wanting to set up a commercial premises to produce food. This involves all sorts of things such as complying with fire regulations and disposal of trade waste.

One thing that is common is the Federal Government's ATO excise legislation. You will need to comply with all their rules and after you have paid $2,000 per vessel to calibrate the volume and spent 6 months working through all their requirements (such as criminal and financial checks) I would say that you would be producing the most expensive pint around.

As an example, these are the forms that you need to complete

- Application for excise registration
- Application for licence to manufacture alcoholic beverages
- Application for licence to store alcohol use this form if you intend to store your beer on a different site to where it was manufactured
- Consent to obtain information both you and anyone who helps you manage or control your premises
- Consent to criminal history record check

You will also need to prove how you will keep records on:

- the raw materials you use to manufacture the beer
- how you make the beer (recipe sheets)
- how you ferment and store the beer
- how much beer youve manufactured
- how you package the beer
- how much beer youve sold or disposed of
- how much beer has been lost or wasted during or after manufacture
- how and where your beer has been moved (deliveries, receipts and dispatch).
- keep your stock records accurate
- find any omissions or errors in your stock records
- find out if you have any security issues (such as theft)
- find any problems with your plant and equipment.

If you get this far, then you will need to pass a site inspection where you will need to prove to the ATO inspectors that you have adequate physical security (locks on windows and doors, key registers etc), show examples of your purchase orders, invoices, stock records etc.

If you are still interested then see ATO Handbook

A far more cost effective way would be to contract brew the beer at premises that are already licensed.


Dave

I wont be getting any of this stuff done it is up too the bloke that has the restaurant, he has contacted me too brew. It wont be my full time job only on my days off.


He sounded keen to do it but it is up to him to get the ball rolling.

i will only be a worker, none of this is comming out of my pocket.

 

[staggalee]

Alltho there`s the occassional bloke saying he`s brewing for a wedding, this is the first time I`ve seen brewing for a restaurent.
Out of interest, which beer and recipe might you use?
{can`t help with the legal ins and outs I`m afraid, but interested in what you think Joe Citizen would pay for?}

stagga.
]

?

 

[marlow_coates]

In that case DJ, you have landed the perfect brewing position.

I am assuming you have the freedom to brew what beers you like and will sell?
And can put your name to them as headbrewer without any of the risk or capital?

That's bloody awsome.

From what is written here, there are obviously a few processes and hoops to jump through before he is set up appropriately to accommodate the brewing.

Should give you plenty of time to perfect the brews you plan to sell.

Will be pretty exciting for you if it goes ahead. I think plenty of guys on here would like the chance to see how their beers performed on a commercial basis, but for reasons above this is obviously out of reach for many.

Marlow

 

[bigfridge]

I wont be getting any of this stuff done it is up too the bloke that has the restaurant, he has contacted me too brew. It wont be my full time job only on my days off.


He sounded keen to do it but it is up to him to get the ball rolling.

i will only be a worker, none of this is comming out of my pocket.

Sorry 'dj' but you didn't make this clear in your question. If he is handling all the details - why are you asking this question here ?

You said:

"A restaurant has asked me too brew beer for them.

What is the legal side of this?"

In this case you are just an employee so there is no alcohol specific requirements - you just have to follow the lawfull directions of your employer.

But then you also asked:

"If i brew at home....."

Well then you are the licensee or if you are getting the restraunt to apply for the license then they will have to show how they have control of your home - not something that I would want to do.

Regardless of who is applying to be the producer, the same rules, regulations and procedures apply.

 

[Julez]

Unless the restaurant already knows all this, they would want to be VERY committed to the idea, or stark raving bonkers, one of the two!

If they set it up on a small scale, the only possible motivation would be for the love of it, as the time, hassle and expense of everything would not be at all worthwhile (i.e. it would be a better investment to spend the money on advertising or some new table cloths).

The only way I think such an idea is feasible, is to make this type of thing a key feature of the restaurant. A "side line" type enterprise would be unprofitable in a strictly $ sense, but very costly in terms of time and effort that could be better spent elsewhere (most unfortunately).

 

[dj1984]

Sorry 'dj' but you didn't make this clear in your question. If he is handling all the details - why are you asking this question here ?

You said:

"A restaurant has asked me too brew beer for them.

What is the legal side of this?"

In this case you are just an employee so there is no alcohol specific requirements - you just have to follow the lawfull directions of your employer.

But then you also asked:

"If i brew at home....."

Well then you are the licensee or if you are getting the restraunt to apply for the license then they will have to show how they have control of your home - not something that I would want to do.

Regardless of who is applying to be the producer, the same rules, regulations and procedures apply.

If it was easy enough i would do it at home but its not going too be.

I already have a full time job that i doubt this guy can pay me enough too leave.

I was pushing more on him getting a set up and ill brew for him

Its a nice restaurant, italian style food, but i dont think this guy is going too be able to get it up and running from what you guys are saying.

I was just after some info on the whole thing

Cheers for the info guys

DJ

 

[riverside]

Mission impossible ! Unless your happy to give it away, it took me 4 years and about 350k just to get a nightclub licence to sell alcohole in the mid 90,s.
IMO it wouldnt be worth the hassle for that quantity !!

 

[Gerard_M]

Volumes etc don't matter, but you would need a producers license and Council approval - but these rules are different in each state so you need to check with your local authorities. What you need to realise is that you are wanting to set up a commercial premises to produce food. This involves all sorts of things such as complying with fire regulations and disposal of trade waste.

One thing that is common is the Federal Government's ATO excise legislation. You will need to comply with all their rules and after you have paid $2,000 per vessel to calibrate the volume and spent 6 months working through all their requirements (such as criminal and financial checks) I would say that you would be producing the most expensive pint around.

As an example, these are the forms that you need to complete

- Application for excise registration
- Application for licence to manufacture alcoholic beverages
- Application for licence to store alcohol use this form if you intend to store your beer on a different site to where it was manufactured
- Consent to obtain information both you and anyone who helps you manage or control your premises
- Consent to criminal history record check

You will also need to prove how you will keep records on:

- the raw materials you use to manufacture the beer
- how you make the beer (recipe sheets)
- how you ferment and store the beer
- how much beer youve manufactured
- how you package the beer
- how much beer youve sold or disposed of
- how much beer has been lost or wasted during or after manufacture
- how and where your beer has been moved (deliveries, receipts and dispatch).
- keep your stock records accurate
- find any omissions or errors in your stock records
- find out if you have any security issues (such as theft)
- find any problems with your plant and equipment.

If you get this far, then you will need to pass a site inspection where you will need to prove to the ATO inspectors that you have adequate physical security (locks on windows and doors, key registers etc), show examples of your purchase orders, invoices, stock records etc.

If you are still interested then see ATO Handbook

A far more cost effective way would be to contract brew the beer at premises that are already licensed.


Dave

This is a pretty good check list, you could thow in work cover & their requirements regarding pressure vessels & AS1210 (also make sure the brew house isn't made out of sub-standard materials such as shitty Chinese "Stainless Steel").
The task is not as hard as it looks. I have done it a couple of times & the ATO are very easy to deal with & worked through the process quickly, 6 weeks tops. If you are in a regional area you may not even undergo an inspection. Calibrations is not as expensive as Dave has quoted so shop around & ask other breweries who they used. We got 3 BBV's done for $1700 which included the travel & accom of the guys doing the job.
Other than that go for it, the more the merrier!
Cheers
Gerard