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I remember hearing that one person took a year to sort out the paperwork before selling the first pint...

I have to be honest one year to sort out the paper work isnt that bad IMO. I've had freinds in all kinds of industry that have taken 3 - 4 years to get their businesses up and running because of paper work hoops they've had to jump through. But if your passionate about it and your not going to loose the passion its worth the effort.

I think at the end of the day if your freind is willing to see the "brewery" as a value add (ie a marketting tool) rather that a seperate profit making machine you'll succeed.

I've always wanted to have a "retirement" project which partially involved a micro brewery as a side project. The thought has always been the the brewery would just be a marketting tool and a bit of fun. The rest of the project would be the real profit machine.
 
I've made enquiries about this before here in SA, and it's not all that tricky - but does involve some paperwork & $$$. Small volume brewing everyone seems to be fairly lenient about. The decider is the volume being produced, and where it's being supplied. If it's small, the attitude seems to be that it's not worth the paperwork etc so it might just slide by them without them showing much interest at all.

Step 1. Apply for excise agreement from ATO - you'll most likely find that in the volumes you are talking about the ATO will be happy to allow use of plastic fermenters, un-calibrated, and also allow you to keep your own records - provided they are accurate and the required excise is paid up front with no mistakes/discrepancies . You'll need to demonstrate that you can accurately show the ABV of the product, and you will also need to keep records of malt purchased, used etc. If there is a discrepancy between ingredients purchased and product declared they will want to know why so you need to record losses as well.
Step 2. Obtain permission to brew from council and Liquor and Gambling, other local bodies as required - some will be interested, for some the small volume will mean that they can't be bothered as it would almost fit in to the category of 'hobby brewing' (none of these guys will talk to you unless you have established an excise agreement FIRST). Apply for producers licence, pay fees, advertise in newspaper and wait for people to object.

As far as food production standard vessels etc etc, the fact is that if the equipment passes the same HACCP requirements as a commercial kitchen, you will have no issues with it. Food standard is an over-used term, and in terms of food production, the only thing anyone is interested in is "Can it be kept clean, or will it contaminate what it is producing - this is very much down to your production and cleaning shedule and processes just like any commercial kitchen. As a chef, I NEVER saw a question of the 'food grade standard' of any vessel in any way shape or form - there's no difference. You will be expected to guarantee the hygiene of the production area and equipment. We all know that this is an inherent part of the brewing process anyway, and is most likely also already part of the restaurant's HACCP procedures anyway, so they will be familiar with it - (even if like many commercial food production environments it is not strictly adhered to...)
Unless you want to build your own kegs, you won't have to worry about all the pressure vessel rubbish that's being mentioned - that's very much a larger commercial brewery problem. I am in no way questioning the knowledge of the commercial guys here who are recounting their experience with setup, however, a lot of the information being supplied here is only relevant and accurate in their state and in context of a much larger commercial brewing operation. It's not wrong, however much of it does not apply to the idea of what you are wanting to do. If you want some more information, have a chat to me at the shop and I will give you the number of the person to speak to - a lovely girl at the ATO excise dept who knows her stuff and is very reasonable about small scale ideas like this. Be aware though that as soon as/if production volume ramps up a bit - the scenario changes considerably and is much more like the situation described for a proper commercial setup - ie: calibrated vessels (very costly) and all sorts of other requirements.
Simple answer - very small scale, feasible. Any larger - not worth the hassle. If you want to find out more, you could also speak to someone like Andy from Grumpys for someone who's been through it all in a commercial scenario, or Justin Murdoch from Yorke Brewing who has been jumping through hoops for a bit now, or even perhaps the guy out at Myponga brewing for how it applies to his 'operation' - as I believe he brews in plastic/uncalibrated vessels. It's definitely possible, or HBS's like Goliath would never have been able to do it. From my discussions with the girl at ATO, I was not given the impression that it would be too much of a drama after satisfying them that they would get their cut, and no cheating was going to be happening......
 
thats some good info domonsura ill forward this on to the guy and see what he thinks.

Cheers
DJ
 
A home brewer out in Sale, VIC, started a "nanobrewery" basically to supply a restaurant owned by his family. Savarain Brewery. I think he is operating with a 50L brew length. The brewer's name is Martin Treasure. A google search should turn up contact details for him.

thats some good info domonsura ill forward this on to the guy and see what he thinks.

Cheers
DJ
 
An easier way maybe is to contact a small brewery in SA and make a few hundred litres of beer at their plant (or have them make it to your spec) and away you go. If your mate has a liquor licence then sales between licence holders is an easy transaction.

Maybe its just my experience, but the 'nasty' record keeping fits succinctly on 1 page printed off an excel spreadsheet and is simple to do in my brewery. Dunno what the fuss and drama is about personally.

Liquor Licensing is different for each State and always changing. Best to give the local authorities a call, they will help you thru the process. Like Gerard, the more the merrier. Give the finger to anyone that discourages you!

Scotty
 
I say go for it! :super:

As others have said, awesome opportunity to try your beer on a crowd and get some good grounding in the commercial world.

If you don't do it you'll never know.

And to the naysayers who say small scale brewing and licensing can't be done, check out this bloke: Happy Goblin Brewery NSW

I would say his tiny setup is smaller than many people have in their garage - more power to the miniswillers and less to the megaswillers I say!

Hopper.
 
Hopping mad,

Top link to the Happy Goblin page.
Have seen their beers, but not tried yet.
Can't believe how small a scale they operate on. Bloody awsome :icon_cheers:

Also, very impressed with the whole 54L demijohn setup, sitting on the floor of a cold room.

Marlow
 
I think as value add on to a business its a great idea where you are actually brewing a very small amount of beer overall and it is more then paying for itself.
The bigger the brew size clearly the labour can be from half as much to only a fraction of the cost per keg. For only 50L the labour would be a far amount of the overall cost whereas if you can stretch it up to 200l for not much more labour cost there is much more profit.
At 50l at a time it could cost you around $350 to produce that one keg, retail selling it by the glass from 50l kegs you should be making all up $700 plus per keg so you can still make 50% on it ideally.
If you are only selling less then one keg a week its not really bringing in much money but the profit margin i think is still good at that small size when really its only a add on to another business which is already reasonbly well off.

If you are serving only from 50l kegs then you don't pay as much excise and you don't have any bottlling cost so you could still brew 50L at a time and still make a bit of cash selling at 6 buck 425ml. Also at that tiny amount I believe you do get all the excise back, I don't think you'll have any big deal.

Being able to use plastic to ferment in makes it all come togther and rather then think too hard you think why the hell not.
That depends of course if the business has room for everything involved somewhere, you do see much bigger systems squeezed into small spaces but if they had a area perfect for it you would be laughing.
Also the personal checks have to get through so hopefully they are not owned by a biker gang and the manager has been in jail for freud you should be fine with everything else, but I gather its already licensed and that is already taken care of to a degree.


have a read of all the aplication forms, they are pretty straight forward.
 
Also at that tiny amount I believe you do get all the excise back

Don't think so mate. I think you can apply for a rebate of 60%(? someone correct me if I'm wrong) up to a certain limit, but again, the way it is applied can be complicated from what I hear. I think the best way to look at that is as a cost, and if you manage to get something back treat it as a bonus :)


but anyway DJ - like Scotty said - Give the finger to anyone that discourages you!
 
Don't think so mate. I think you can apply for a rebate of 60%(? someone correct me if I'm wrong) up to a certain limit, but again, the way it is applied can be complicated from what I hear. I think the best way to look at that is as a cost, and if you manage to get something back treat it as a bonus :)


but anyway DJ - like Scotty said - Give the finger to anyone that discourages you!

60% is proberly correct I was quoting out my arse, out of my arse quote again but I think for the max rebate its 30 000L.
Anyway I agree you wouldn't factor any rebates into the beer price.
 
What if you brewed with no licenses but gave the beer away for free?

As in buy a meal and get a free beer.

If you don't sell it do you need all the licenses?

This could be a good way to get your beer into an establishment and convince them it is worth either brewing on premise or building up demand enough to warrant the hassle of the paperwork. Mind you I agree that the paperwork is that big an issue for low volumes.
 
Hopping mad,

Top link to the Happy Goblin page.
Have seen their beers, but not tried yet.
Can't believe how small a scale they operate on. Bloody awsome :icon_cheers:

Also, very impressed with the whole 54L demijohn setup, sitting on the floor of a cold room.

Marlow

Yeah, I was gobsmacked when someone forwarded that link to me - seems quite a primitive setup, but that guy seems to have made it work. I guess somewhere along the way he has satisfied all the relevant authorities (licensing, health, council etc), and has managed to get his brewery going in NSW no less - which I gather is one of the tougher places in terms of licensing. A remarkable thing! Goes to show you don't need to be backed by a merchant banker to get these things going.

Hopper.
 
I agree with the 30 000L as the maximum for any rebate. That is what it said in the ATO's Excise assitance booklet. Didn't assist me much though. Still couldn't work it out... Always with the confusing sentence they are.
 
The giveaway idea wont fly, if your attaching it to the meal it is considered a part of the sale and therefore bound by licence conditions. That transaction is on the retailer and wont impact the producer.

You can go down the track of economies of scale, but it it depends what folks are trying to acheive? A bit of kudos and point of difference is sometimes worth more than a huge profit. From my experience, the economies of scale arguement is only viable if financial mismanagement does not get in the way first ....

Theres quite a few references for folks that started small in the US and grew big, Sierra Nevada and Dog Fish Head are 2 great examples.

Scotty
 
Theres quite a few references for folks that started small in the US and grew big, Sierra Nevada and Dog Fish Head are 2 great examples.
Scotty

Yeah, that Sam Caligione guy in the US is very inspirational - the beers they're pushing out are pretty experimental too - he breaks heaps of rules in his brewing but seems to create stuff that works and that people keep coming back for more. He started brewing in his basement, then on premise with a small 3 vessel HERMS set-up, then when the brewery really took off they went to the big steel stuff, but still use the HERMS to experiment with small batches.

The principle of DogFish when they started was that no two beers Sam made when you came in were the same. If you came back in a few weeks, there'd be totally different brews from different batches on. You never knew what you were going to drink until you came in to check.

Brilliant idea which people thought was pretty unique - until people started liking certain styles and he got so many requests for certain beers he'd made they had to start going back over the recipes and making brews consistently. They pretty much went from chaos theory style brewing to consistent brews to satisfy the market demand. A fascinating story, and a very interesting experiment.

Hopper.
 
I can't believe that Happy Goblin setup. Obviously it works and he has plenty of stockists for such a minute opperation. But bloody hell its interesting to see a "commercial" opperation thats gravity fed. Makes Blue Dog Brewing / Bundaberg constructions look like CUB or Lion Nathan by comparison LOL

He does link to AHB - I wonder if he is a member on here?
 
There you go someone for you to contact directly who knows first hand what they are talking about dj1984
 
But bloody hell its interesting to see a "commercial" opperation thats gravity fed.
plenty of commercial breweries use gravity, nothing unusual in that.
My last brewery had gravity from the lauter tun to kettle and that was a 24 HL brewery.
 

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