Bottle to Kegs - drop in quality

[drtablet]

I'm having trouble reproducing the same quality of beer when moving from bottles to kegs.

These are my normal fermentation technical details when bottle conditioning/carbonating.
Ferment 18C for 2 weeks - fermentation is usually over after 5 days but I just leave it in the same vessel for a further 9-10 days. I don't bother with a secondary. Leaving the beer on the yeast cake this long has never produced any off flavours.
In the last 4 days of the above fermentation I dry hop.
Then bulk prime and bottle.
Bottle condition/carbonate for 2 weeks at room temperature (approx 18-21C)

I'm trying kegging now without good results. The beer is not off but its nowhere near as good as my bottle conditioning.
It sits in primary fermentor for 5-7 days (18C)
Rack to secondary fermentor for conditioning for 2 weeks at 18C.
Then transfer to 19l keg and force carbonate at 4C at 16PSI for 5 days.

The conditioning of the beer I get after 2 weeks in a bottle seems perfect and I get great beer, but two weeks in a secondary fermentor just does not produce the same result. I thought with all the extra yeast in the secondary vessel I'd get conditioning even faster/better than in a bottle.

Each time I transfer from primary to secondary and to the keg the beer is exposed to air during this time. Could it be spoilt this quickly?

Can anyone suggest anything obvious or even anything else to try.

I have tried a Pale Ale, American Amber, British Bitter and a Summer Ale, all fantastic in the bottle but keggeed really disappointing.

I've even tried fermenting in a 19l keg under pressure for the secondary of 10psi but it's not improved the beer.
I can't see anything I'm doing obviously wrong.
I'm very open to suggestions.
Cheers

 

[GalBrew]

You are thinking about kegging a little off. Think of a keg as one big bottle rather than a totally different mystical thing. The only difference is that you are force carbing rather than bottle/keg conditioning. I would cut the secondary for starters, that is not necessary, just do things as per your normal regime. I would also cold crash the beer after primary for 3 or so days (though I would extend my primary out a bit). Also if your bottles benefit from 2 weeks of conditioning don't you think that your kegged beer will too? I force carb for one week and then condition for another before I touch my kegged beers. Otherwise they still taste quite rough (to me anyhow).

So ferment at 18degC for 2 weeks, cold crash for 3-4 days at 0-1degC, keg, force carb for 7 days, condition for 7 more. Drink!

 

[Cervantes]

So ferment at 18degC for 2 weeks, cold crash for 3-4 days at 0-1degC, keg, force carb for 7 days, condition for 7 more. Drink!

Plus one for this.............

The only thing that I'll add is that keg conditioning should be done at keg fridge temps rather than at the 18 to 21 that you conditioned your bottled beer at. You don't need the higher temps as you don't need the yeast to do the carbonation for you.

 

[GalBrew]

Plus one for this.............

The only thing that I'll add is that keg conditioning should be done at keg fridge temps rather than at the 18 to 21 that you conditioned your bottled beer at.

Totally, just leave it in the fridge for another week (should have mentioned that) :icon_cheers:

 

[drtablet]

Thanks gents,

Just to clarify what I am after.

I'm after the beer being conditioned and clear/yeast free before I keg it, so I can drink immediately once kegged (if at all possible)

So keg it and force carbonate it so I can then drink direct from the keg or bottle with a beer gun after from the keg.


If I ferment at 18C for two weeks this should cover the primary fermentation and also the conditioning (cleaning up by yeast and so on).

Cold Crash for 1C for 4 days to drop the yeast out (I've already irish-mossed on the boil for the proteins)

Then move to the keg at 4C and carbonate for 7 days.

From your advise I should also then leave the legs for 1 more week at 4C for final conditioning.

My problem (well one of them) could be that I considered all conditioning of the beer to require the presence of the yeast, even if only present at a trace to mop up any primary fermentation by-products. If the yeast has been dropped out and conditioning can still continue without them this could be what I need. i.e. just leave in the keg for longer before drinking, or drink every few days to see if it improves with time.

I did bottle some directly from the kegs after carbonation was complete, I can see if this improves with time in the bottle also.

I was also under the impression that Keg-conditioning was treating a kegs like a big bottle, so has the yeast in it and is carbonated by the yeast under some pressure as it converts some more sugar added.

My misunderstanding is probably I was expecting conditioning to be done in the secondary fermentor and already complete before kegging.

cheers

 

[GalBrew]

There will be plenty of yeast left in the keg after cold crashing. The last pint or so out of all of my kegs is quite yeasty, also the longer you leave your keg the clearer it will become so you can visually track the final dropping out of the leftover yeast..

 

[Spiesy]

If possible I'd also add a D rest into your fermentation regime.

Raise your ale to 21 or so for 24 hours prior to chilling and kegging.

 

[manticle]

You've given a lot of detail but nothing in relation to what exactly is wrong with, or missing from your kegged batches.

 

[drtablet]

Hi,

Compared to my bottled beer my kegged beer (that has been in a secondary fermentor conditioning for a couple of weeks) taste "rough" unconditioned.

Its not off, there is no diacytyle and not any fusel alcohol flavours. Its tastes mainly unbalanced or "not ready".

I thought using a secondary was like a conditioning tank and would do the trick but as far as I can tell from the suggestions here it may just need more time in the keg.

If conditioning is linked to the yeast, taking most of the yeast out via CC and dropping to 1C then 4C would pretty much mean conditioning stops.

The only other thing I did was change the yeast from 514 to S04. I've always been really happy with 514 but found in a few experimental brews that S04 fermented dryer to a lower final gravity than 514.

thoughts?

 

[Dan Pratt]

You changed the yeast from 514 to S04, by doing that you affectively changed your beer flavour and final beer. Have you tried a batch using 514 and kegged that beer?

 

[manticle]

Hi,
Compared to my bottled beer my kegged beer (that has been in a secondary fermentor conditioning for a couple of weeks) taste "rough" unconditioned.
Its not off, there is no diacytyle and not any fusel alcohol flavours. Its tastes mainly unbalanced or "not ready".
I thought using a secondary was like a conditioning tank and would do the trick but as far as I can tell from the suggestions here it may just need more time in the keg.
If conditioning is linked to the yeast, taking most of the yeast out via CC and dropping to 1C then 4C would pretty much mean conditioning stops.
The only other thing I did was change the yeast from 514 to S04. I've always been really happy with 514 but found in a few experimental brews that S04 fermented dryer to a lower final gravity than 514.
thoughts?

Your beer needs similar time in the large vessel (keg) as it does in the smaller one (bottle). Not necessarily exactly the same since different volumes mature/condition at different rates. Just because beer is fizzy, doesn't mean it's ready.
Yeast dropping out of solution is a major factor in the clean/mature taste of many beer styles. Yeast needs time and gravity to drop. Fi ings, cold and filtering are optional extras that also work.
Long story short: wait longer.

 

[Nicko_Cairns]

Your beer needs similar time in the large vessel (keg) as it does in the samller one (bottle). Not necessarily exactly the same since different volumes mature/condition at different rates. Just because beer is fizzy, doesn't mean it's ready.
Yeast dropping out of solution is a major factor in the clean/mature taste of many beer styles. Yeast needs time and gravity to drop. Fi ings, cold and filtering are optional extras that also work.
Long story short: wait longer.

Or do what I did with my last Pale Ale, force carb it then start drinking straight away.. by the time I was halfway through the keg it was conditioned enough to let others drink it too :chug: :beerbang: :super: :kooi:

 

[GalBrew]

Trust me, give your kegged & carbonated beer 1 week to mind its own business in the keg fridge and it will taste a million times better.

 

[tugger]

Mabee try your 2 week primary then transfer direct to keg after batch priming. Leave it at 18c for 2 weeks chill and enjoy.
You may need to shorten your dip tube by an inch.
This is how I do it.
Most of the time the yeast paints it's self to the bottom of the keg.

 

[TheWiggman]

I think people get confused with the concept of a 'secondary' (myself included). When kegging, the keg is your secondary so to speak. There's no reason why you shouldn't condition the beer in the keg. In fact, many good reasons why you should. Some very good advice above.
Wouldn't bother shortening the dip tube tugger, the first pour on a keg that's been still for a few weeks will suck up the nasties and it's happy drinking from then on.

 

[wereprawn]

cheers guys,

I really appreciate all your suggestions, which pretty much amount to "wait"

So I put a brew on today using 514 yeast.

I will ferment at 18C for 2 weeks to give it probably 5 days of fermentation and 11 days to start the conditioning.

Then I'll rack/move it to a 19l keg and let it sit for another two weeks at 18C (I have a pressure release at 5PSI in case any gas is given off).

The last 4 days of the 2 weeks in the keg I'll Dry hop.

Then I'll Cold Crash for probably 5 days after at 1C. I think to get the hop sock out before cold crashing so I don't get it being sucked up by the pipe and getting stuck. Would not want to disturb it after all the clearing the CC has done.

Then 5 days at 4C under 14-16PSI to force carbonate.

cheers

Do your kegs seal at 5 psi ? I know mine don't. Make sure they are sealed well to avoid infection.I usually put about 20psi on kegs i am going to leave to condition.

Cheers.

 

[drtablet]

cheers guys,

I really appreciate all your suggestions, which pretty much amount to "wait"

So I put a brew on today using 514 yeast.

I will ferment at 18C for 2 weeks to give it probably 5 days of fermentation and 11 days to start the conditioning.

Then I'll rack/move it to a 19l keg and let it sit for another two weeks at 18C (I have a pressure release at 5PSI in case any gas is given off).

The last 4 days of the 2 weeks in the keg I'll Dry hop.

Then I'll Cold Crash for probably 5 days after at 1C. I think to get the hop sock out before cold crashing so I don't get it being sucked up by the pipe and getting stuck. Would not want to disturb it after all the clearing the CC has done.

Then 5 days at 4C under 14-16PSI to force carbonate.

cheers