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Elderfi

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Hey all,

Just about to put this down - grain was suggested by my LHBS, the hops I've sorta just winged together from various recipes:
Black IPA

Grain

4kg Ale

1kg Vienna

0.4kg Eclipse

Will give you aound 68 EBC and 5.6% ABV



Hops

14 g Magnum 60 min. (40 min for no chill)
28 g Centennial 45 min. (25 min for no chill)
28 g Amarillo 15 min. (in the cube for no chill)
28 g Centennial 0 min (in the cube for no chill)
28 g Amarillo dry hop
28 g Centennial dry hop


Does that sound alright - I am no chilling, I want the yummy malt flavours to shine through still - so I am thinking about halving the 45 min addition of Centennial?

Thought?
 

fdsaasdf

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It would be helpful to those looking to offer advice to have more information - what sort of system are you brewing on, what is the batch volume and do you whirlpool/steep or cube as soon as the boil is finished?

I'd suggest moving the 45min addition to closer to flameout, something like 15min

Not sure why you're separating 15min and 0min additions if they all go in the cube?
 

Elderfi

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It would be helpful to those looking to offer advice to have more information - what sort of system are you brewing on, what is the batch volume and do you whirlpool/steep or cube as soon as the boil is finished?

I'd suggest moving the 45min addition to closer to flameout, something like 15min

Not sure why you're separating 15min and 0min additions if they all go in the cube?
Very good points - sorry.

I am using a GUTEN 40L. Pre-boil volume is 26 liters, and FV volume should be 21ish litres (I think). I have been decanting straight to the cube, and I would be following the cube steps above.

14 g Magnum 40 min for no chill
28 g Centennial 25 min for no chill - should I change this to 15?
28 g Amarillo in the cube for no chill
28 g Centennial in the cube for no chill
28 g Amarillo dry hop
28 g Centennial dry hop
 

Elderfi

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Is there an issue with steeping / whirlpool before cubing. I thought the main idea was the wort goes in boiling and that pasteurizes the vessel?
 

fdsaasdf

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Ok, thanks for the details. It would be worth punching into a tool to check you're happy with the estimated IBU with the AA% of the hops, but in any case you make the Centennial boil addition at 15 then I think you're on the right track with the rest of the bill.

Is there an issue with steeping / whirlpool before cubing. I thought the main idea was the wort goes in boiling and that pasteurizes the vessel?
Pasteurisation takes different amounts of time at different temperatures. It takes a second at 90+ degrees C and not much longer at 80C. There are many charts available such as Pasteurization Time and Temperature to describe this.

Plenty of no-chillers will steep/whirlpool and it is quite safe to do so. It is common practice to give the cube a quick rinse with boiling water just before filling anyway - and if it is anything other than sparkling clean after this rinse then give it a clean as organic matter can cause infection/spoilage regardless of how hot you cube.

By way of example, in my current 1V I whirlpool down to ~80degC, and tend to have very large late hop additions that coagulate nicely with break matter in the centre which reduces the break matter going through my tap and into the cube. It also means I'm cubing at closer to the temperature at which isomerisation sharply declines, which means any remaining hop matter is infusing hop aroma & flavour but very little bitterness.
 

Elderfi

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Ok, thanks for the details. It would be worth punching into a tool to check you're happy with the estimated IBU with the AA% of the hops, but in any case you make the Centennial boil addition at 15 then I think you're on the right track with the rest of the bill.


Pasteurisation takes different amounts of time at different temperatures. It takes a second at 90+ degrees C and not much longer at 80C. There are many charts available such as Pasteurization Time and Temperature to describe this.

Plenty of no-chillers will steep/whirlpool and it is quite safe to do so. It is common practice to give the cube a quick rinse with boiling water just before filling anyway - and if it is anything other than sparkling clean after this rinse then give it a clean as organic matter can cause infection/spoilage regardless of how hot you cube.

By way of example, in my current 1V I whirlpool down to ~80degC, and tend to have very large late hop additions that coagulate nicely with break matter in the centre which reduces the break matter going through my tap and into the cube. It also means I'm cubing at closer to the temperature at which isomerisation sharply declines, which means any remaining hop matter is infusing hop aroma & flavour but very little bitterness.
Thanks so much for the details - there is so much to learn. For this one, I will stick to decanting straight to the cube and in the time between now and my next brew read up on whirlpooling.
 

MHB

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I would recommend doing it the other way around, just watch a youtube video or two, there are plenty out there.
An effective whirlpool and leaving your trub in the kettle will make for better beer and all things being equal more of it into the fermenter.
Mark

Edit
I would like to see that colour up over 100 EBC, 68 isn't really black enough, more sort of dark brown.
Just a personal taste thing, but if I'm brewing a black its going to be BLACK.
Mark
1587188399323.png
 
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Elderfi

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I would recommend doing it the other way around, just watch a youtube video or two, there are plenty out there.
An effective whirlpool and leaving your trub in the kettle will make for better beer and all things being equal more of it into the fermenter.
Mark

Edit
I would like to see that colour up over 100 EBC, 68 isn't really black enough, more sort of dark brown.
Just a personal taste thing, but if I'm brewing a black its going to be BLACK.
Mark
View attachment 117952
Thanks Mark - I did the straight into the cube, simply because I had this brew mashing as I was asking these questions and didn't want to confuse things further. Will definitely do the whirlpool next. This looked and smelled great going into the cube, I'll follow up with a pic when ready!
 

Schikitar

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150g of hops in a black IPA? I used nearly 165g hotside in a pale ale I brewed yesterday, that includes 100g in the whirlpool but doesn't include the 115g of dry hops I'll be throwing at it (265g total). My sense of smell/taste must be diminished if you can manage to get anything in IPA territory with those modest additions. I hope it turns out great though, I'm just sceptical of that schedule..
 

Elderfi

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Just went into the FV this morning. Maybe a black IPA is not the best name for this style? I really didn't want to overpower the malt. It tasted really nice going in!
 

Elderfi

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I have a further question around efficiency. My hyrdometer reading was 1050, which suggests my efficiency is pretty low (given 5.5 kilos of fermentables, and my pre / post boil volumes). Is there a margin of error with hyrdometers? Or is there any way to improve my efficiency?
 

MHB

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Looks like this is this months pet hate for me. to even start talking about efficiency you need the Volume and the SG! From 5.5kg of malt, 1.050 in 20L would suck, 1.050 in 200L would rank up there with the 5 loaves and 2 fishes (a miracle). So a bit more information, really need the SG and Volume in kettle, either before or after the boil doesent matter.
Hydrometers are like any other tool, how good they are and how well you use them are equally important. Hydrometers accuracy is also temperature dependant, so you need to measure the temperature of the wort.
There are plenty of how to use an hydrometer videos on places like youtube, might be worth having a look.
Happy enough to discuss efficiency, just get back with the information needed to make it a sensible conversation.
Mark
 

Elderfi

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Looks like this is this months pet hate for me. to even start talking about efficiency you need the Volume and the SG! From 5.5kg of malt, 1.050 in 20L would suck, 1.050 in 200L would rank up there with the 5 loaves and 2 fishes (a miracle). So a bit more information, really need the SG and Volume in kettle, either before or after the boil doesent matter.
Hydrometers are like any other tool, how good they are and how well you use them are equally important. Hydrometers accuracy is also temperature dependant, so you need to measure the temperature of the wort.
There are plenty of how to use an hydrometer videos on places like youtube, might be worth having a look.
Happy enough to discuss efficiency, just get back with the information needed to make it a sensible conversation.
Mark
Thanks for the reply Mark. I quote my pre boil volumes and post boil volumes on the third post on this thread - is there more information needed than that? Sorry, I am really new to all grain brewing!
 

MHB

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Ya but is the 1.050 before or after the boil?
I have read the thread, even by post #3 its still targets and maybes, you need to know what you actually got.
Mark
 

Elderfi

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I see! 1050 was after the boil, at room temp (as I understand, higher temps can throw readings things out a little?)

There was bang on 21 litres that went into the FV.

I've also attached a pic of the hydrometer reading, if it is helpful?

20200419_130547.jpg
 

MHB

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Looks good, like I said above its not "Black" but that's an easy fix.
Efficiency is basically how much you got out of what is a available as a percentage. Extract is all the soluble parts of the malt, to calculate the mass of extract the equation, Mass of Extract = Volume *Specific Gravity *Plato.
Plato is the other way to measure wort density, it is W/W as %. If you dissolved 125g of sugar in enough water to make 1000g you would have a 12.5% Weight of sugar in 1000g (that's 125/1000 or 0.125). there is a relationship between SG and Plato (oP), roughly SG=(4*oP)/1000+1. The V*SG part of the equation gives you the mass of your 21L.
ME=21*1.050*0.12 = 2.646kg of extract.
Your malt will have a potential (what you would get from a lab test) of about 76%, you used 5.5kg so your potential is about 5.5*0.76 = 4.18kg
Your efficiency would be 2.646/4.18*100 = 63.3%.

About the best you will get on a Guten is something like 80% (that's from other peoples reports, I haven't played with one).
So to get more efficiency.
L:G (Water to Grain) at a pre-boil volume of 26L assuming you took out about 5L with the expended malt looks like you strike water volume was around 31L. your L:G would be roughly 5.64:1.
I don't know if you are sparging at all, bring the L:G back to around 5:1 would give you about 5.5L to sparge with, will get some more extract out of the grain bed. Taste your expended malt, if its sweet, that's left behind extract and you need to sparge better.

Look at your crush. To work effectively all recirculating systems need a fairly coarsely crushed grain bill so the liquor (brewing term for all the water that is used in making beer) can penetrate the grain bed, liberate the enzymes and extract the sugars. Depending on the quality of the mill, but as you crack more coarsely you get more uncrushed malt from which you get very little extract.
At the end of the mash, dump out your expended grain and sort through it, uncrushed grains show up like little pearls in sand, more than 1-2 in a big double handful and you need to crack finer.
Too fine (Cracking grain really is a Goldilocks proposition - get it just right) a crush and you wont get enough flow through the grain bed. look at the expended malt, if its blotchey (darker and lighter in patches)shows uneven flow through the grist, look for dough balls (dry malt in a lump)
The problem with all the cheap recirculating systems I have seen is that its very hard to tell how much of the recirculating liquor id going through the grain and how much just overflowing and going down the outside.
Braumeister pumps up through the grain bed so all the liquor overflowing the malt pipe is going through the grain - its a better system but Spidle own the patent. If you can control the recirculation so all of it is going down through the malt rather than overflowing (maybe just occasionally during the mash so you can see the permeability of the grain bed).

Getting all the other basics right, pH, enough Calcium, check the real V readout temperature will all help. Do a mash out, heat to 80oC or close to at the end of the mash.
Do a full hour mash, a 60-90 minute boil... Get the basics right.
Reading what you have posted I doubt its any one thing more a bit of A+B+C... but look at your crush first it looks like a probable.
Mark
 

Elderfi

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Looks good, like I said above its not "Black" but that's an easy fix.
Efficiency is basically how much you got out of what is a available as a percentage. Extract is all the soluble parts of the malt, to calculate the mass of extract the equation, Mass of Extract = Volume *Specific Gravity *Plato.
Plato is the other way to measure wort density, it is W/W as %. If you dissolved 125g of sugar in enough water to make 1000g you would have a 12.5% Weight of sugar in 1000g (that's 125/1000 or 0.125). there is a relationship between SG and Plato (oP), roughly SG=(4*oP)/1000+1. The V*SG part of the equation gives you the mass of your 21L.
ME=21*1.050*0.12 = 2.646kg of extract.
Your malt will have a potential (what you would get from a lab test) of about 76%, you used 5.5kg so your potential is about 5.5*0.76 = 4.18kg
Your efficiency would be 2.646/4.18*100 = 63.3%.

About the best you will get on a Guten is something like 80% (that's from other peoples reports, I haven't played with one).
So to get more efficiency.
L:G (Water to Grain) at a pre-boil volume of 26L assuming you took out about 5L with the expended malt looks like you strike water volume was around 31L. your L:G would be roughly 5.64:1.
I don't know if you are sparging at all, bring the L:G back to around 5:1 would give you about 5.5L to sparge with, will get some more extract out of the grain bed. Taste your expended malt, if its sweet, that's left behind extract and you need to sparge better.

Look at your crush. To work effectively all recirculating systems need a fairly coarsely crushed grain bill so the liquor (brewing term for all the water that is used in making beer) can penetrate the grain bed, liberate the enzymes and extract the sugars. Depending on the quality of the mill, but as you crack more coarsely you get more uncrushed malt from which you get very little extract.
At the end of the mash, dump out your expended grain and sort through it, uncrushed grains show up like little pearls in sand, more than 1-2 in a big double handful and you need to crack finer.
Too fine (Cracking grain really is a Goldilocks proposition - get it just right) a crush and you wont get enough flow through the grain bed. look at the expended malt, if its blotchey (darker and lighter in patches)shows uneven flow through the grist, look for dough balls (dry malt in a lump)
The problem with all the cheap recirculating systems I have seen is that its very hard to tell how much of the recirculating liquor id going through the grain and how much just overflowing and going down the outside.
Braumeister pumps up through the grain bed so all the liquor overflowing the malt pipe is going through the grain - its a better system but Spidle own the patent. If you can control the recirculation so all of it is going down through the malt rather than overflowing (maybe just occasionally during the mash so you can see the permeability of the grain bed).

Getting all the other basics right, pH, enough Calcium, check the real V readout temperature will all help. Do a mash out, heat to 80oC or close to at the end of the mash.
Do a full hour mash, a 60-90 minute boil... Get the basics right.
Reading what you have posted I doubt its any one thing more a bit of A+B+C... but look at your crush first it looks like a probable.
Mark
This is a really detailed answer Mark - thank you. I'll take this and the other pointers on board my next brew. To get the pre-boil volume I did the following:

fill the GUTEN to the 20ltr mark
Mash for 60 minutes @67*C
Rest at 77*c for 10 minutes
Sparge with enough water to bring the volume up to the 26 litre mark. This was about 12 litres of water (I used the hot water out of my tap - the guy at the LHBS said this should be fine)
Then boil.

I admit, not the most scientific method - I was following the advice in the GUTEN thread on this forum :).
 
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This is a really detailed answer Mark - thank you. I'll take this and the other pointers on board my next brew. To get the pre-boil volume I did the following:

fill the GUTEN to the 20ltr mark
Mash for 60 minutes @67*C
Rest at 77*c for 10 minutes
Sparge with enough water to bring the volume up to the 26 litre mark. This was about 12 litres of water (I used the hot water out of my tap - the guy at the LHBS said this should be fine)
Then boil.

I admit, not the most scientific method - I was following the advice in the GUTEN thread on this forum :).
Do you use a program like "brewfather" ? I'd recommend this as the program calculates all your numbers for you from Sg, Og & Fg, IBUs, ABV ect ect, I also have a 40Ltr Guten, Only issue I've found well more of a education as such is the numbers that say "gladfield malt" give will differ to say "simpsons malt" so branding matters where possible when inputting your ingredients, I'm about 15 brews in withing 12 months using a "guten" and the 'brewfather' program, my brews have gotten much better from learning from youtube, podcasts, books and good old internet forums.
 

Elderfi

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Do you use a program like "brewfather" ? I'd recommend this as the program calculates all your numbers for you from Sg, Og & Fg, IBUs, ABV ect ect, I also have a 40Ltr Guten, Only issue I've found well more of a education as such is the numbers that say "gladfield malt" give will differ to say "simpsons malt" so branding matters where possible when inputting your ingredients, I'm about 15 brews in withing 12 months using a "guten" and the 'brewfather' program, my brews have gotten much better from learning from youtube, podcasts, books and good old internet forums.
Yeah - I just started using BeerSmith, and checked out BrewFather. I like the feel of BrewFather more and I think I will switch to that.

Question RE GUTEN, what width do you set your mill for crushing grains? I have a KegLand 2 roller, and my last brew I set it to about 3ml (roughly a credit card width) and I found I had a few dough balls.
 
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Yeah - I just started using BeerSmith, and checked out BrewFather. I like the feel of BrewFather more and I think I will switch to that.

Question RE GUTEN, what width do you set your mill for crushing grains? I have a KegLand 2 roller, and my last brew I set it to about 3ml (roughly a credit card width) and I found I had a few dough balls.
Sorry for the late reply, I don’t mill my own, I get the LHBS to do it and never asked the question about size. Sorry mate
 

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