Bitterness Extraction

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.DJ.

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As an extract brewer (about to BIAB and No chill) I have been thinking about the following and have no idea about the answer.

If I am boiling wort and just throw the hops into the boil, then transfer to a cube, as the wort is still hot, bitterness is still being extracted from the hops. This I know and I think has been proven and discussed many times.

No what I cant get my head around is if I use a hopsock and REMOVE the hops and transfer the near boiling wort to a cube:

1. Will bitterness still be extracted ? ie do the compounds extracted get "bitterer" (i know its probably not a word!!)
2. Or will bitterness remain stable as no hops remain in the wort?
 
As an extract brewer (about to BIAB and No chill) I have been thinking about the following and have no idea about the answer.

If I am boiling wort and just throw the hops into the boil, then transfer to a cube, as the wort is still hot, bitterness is still being extracted from the hops. This I know and I think has been proven and discussed many times.

No what I cant get my head around is if I use a hopsock and REMOVE the hops and transfer the near boiling wort to a cube:

1. Will bitterness still be extracted ? ie do the compounds extracted get "bitterer" (i know its probably not a word!!)
2. Or will bitterness remain stable as no hops remain in the wort?


Yes!



Sorry just being cheeky after seeing the other post.

If you use a hopsock you remove much of the hop trub when it is removed, if not it stays in the wort until the wort is drawn off. The wort in the kettle should be whirlpooled at the end of the boil to form a central cone of break material and hop trub in the bottom of the kettle, so that clean (as possible) wort is drawn off (this is why the kettle pickup tube is located at the outer wall of the kettle). If you don't have a puckup tube and outlet valve on the vessel you are using as a kettle then syphon from the outer edge. Not a no chiller here so maybe whirlpooling and resting for 20 min for the trub to drob out is not an option when no-chilling, guess you would want to get the wort into the cube as hot as possible to guard against infection.

Cheers,

Screwy
 
Knew I'd seen a thread on this recently...

Bit of reading

sorry if I missed something...but cant quite find the answer in that thread...??? Yes, it talks about bitterness being addded in the cude but didnt see anything about removing the hops...??? B)
 
I know there's one forum user who re- uses hop trub so the assumption is that there are still some bitterness compounds left in the trub.

As far as I can work out it's the fact that flavour and aroma hops are exposed to heat for longer (bringing out the bitterness) so surely removing those hops before they've fully isomerised would lessen the effect?

I don't know but it just makes sense to me. Otherwise we could throw hops in at 60 and take them out again at 50 and expect complete isomerisation and bitterness to take effect.
 
Damn, maybe that's the wrong thread, I know there was a recent discussion on the topic though.....

The general consensus is that removing the actual hop solids won't stop the compounds that they have released from adding further bitterness.......

That said, reading manticle's post, I can't really see which side is right now that I look at it that way......
 
The alpha acids (in the resin) are insoluble until they are isomerised, and the isomerisation/dissolution gives the bitterness.

So, if your hop bag filters out all the fine bits of resin that break free from your hop cones/pellets, then you should not get any further isomerisation/bittering post-boil in a cube. This is of course, not possible, especially for pellets... I would guess that using flowers may result in less "cube bitterness" than if you were to use pellets.
 
The general consensus is that removing the actual hop solids won't stop the compounds that they have released from adding further bitterness.......

The alpha acids (in the resin) are insoluble until they are isomerised, and the isomerisation/dissolution gives the bitterness.

So, if your hop bag filters out all the fine bits of resin that break free from your hop cones/pellets, then you should not get any further isomerisation/bittering post-boil in a cube. This is of course, not possible, especially for pellets... I would guess that using flowers may result in less "cube bitterness" than if you were to use pellets.

That was my understanding, adding to adams post i'd assume the resins in solution in the boil (which would happen almost immediatly) as the pellets breakdown would continue to isomerise even after you remove the hop matter as the breakdown of the acids heat based (among other things such as pH, wort gravity etc) to create IBU bitterness?

In other words, if you remove the heat you halt the bittering regardless if the hop matter is gone or present. On the other hand if the oils/resins/acids are still in suspension they continue to breakdown into 'bitterness' until the temperature reaches its lower threshold of bitterness conversion.

Atleast thats the way ive been interpreting it
 
So dunking in a hop bag at 60 and leaving for say 10 mins would give the same IBU as leaving them in?

Estimates for conversion of starches range from 10 -20 minutes in most cases when mashing. Is there a similar estimate for hop isomerisation?
 
Sorry Zwickel, I may have missed something but the question is about isomerisation (which my understanding suggests occurs first in order for utilisation occur afterwards).

The question is - will hops in a boil for 10 minutes be enough to bitter a wort if the hops are then removed but the boil continues for 60 minutes?

That is - is 10 minutes of boiling enough to release the bittering compound from their hop jail so that when the hops are removed, the compounds remain and continue to bitter?

Sorry if I missed something (which is more than likely).
 
manticle, in this case utilisation and isomerisation is the same. Bitterness comes from isomerized alpha acid. Isomerisation depends on the boiling time as you can see in the graph. If youre going to remove the hops, there cannot be any isomerization anymore.
 
I'd really like to know too manticle. I've used a conical strainer for hop additions but it can't hold enough hops to be worthwhile. If I could remove the bittering hops before doing the flavour addition I reckon I'd have plenty of room. I always assumed I couldn't do this, but it makes sense that it can't work both ways.
 
same question: can the gravity of the wort be increasing after removing the grain?
 
in this case utilisation and isomerisation is the same. Bitterness comes from isomerized alpha acid. Isomerisation depends on the boiling time as you can see in the graph. If youre going to remove the hops, there cannot be any isomerization anymore.
This was my original thought too Zwickel - just a few of the other posters suggested differently.
 
This was my original thought too Zwickel - just a few of the other posters suggested differently.
okey-dokey, just have a look at what we want to do: wed like to extract the alpha acid from the hops. Thatfor the hops gets boiled. The process we call isomerisation. All we want is the isomerisation of the alpha acid (makes the bitterness), the success of that we call utilisation.
Thats all
 
Ive been looking at bitterness for some time; frankly its the most contentious subject in brewing.
All the research $s come from big brewers and they arent all that interested in what happens after 30-35 IBUs, further they are making the same beer over and over with what amounts to the same ingredients, in ever increasing numbers they are using hop extracts rather than raw hops. In any case they have labs that measure the results, then they can either blend beers or add extracts to nail down the exact number they are looking for. In consequence there is a lot less known about what happens at higher IBUs.

Its really us home and craft brewers that really are interested in the subject, first as with any problem solving exercise we have to pin down what we know, before tackling the great un-knowns.

Here is an outline of what I am using as working data; I know there will be some who disagree of put different emphasis on other factors.

Lupin Glands, are special glands (containing nearly all the hop constituents we are interested in), the majority of these are located at the base of the Bracts (the small leaf like petals that make up the hop cone).
They are reasonably easily detached, if you are ever handling hop flowers this is the sticky greenish yellow powder that gets all over your hands.
This is also why we get better utilisation from pellets than from flowers, the milling of the hop cones to powder exposed all the lupin glands, in the case of flowers some of the lupin glands are covered in a mat of wet bracts and simply dont get the chance to be involved in the reactions that lead to bitterness.

Hop Resins, well there are a bunch of those, the two we look at most are alpha and beta acids, alpha acid (AA) is the prime bittering substance in beer.
The roll of the other constituents shouldnt be ignored but if we dont we could be here for a fair fraction of forever.
There are three chemicals called AA they are all relatively insoluble; during the boil they get rearranged into a soluble form, this rearranging process is called Isomerisation.

Utilisation, is simply how much of the insoluble AA is converted into soluble Iso-Alpha and is found in the finished beer expressed as a percentage

IBUs are by definition the milligrams of Iso-Alpha / Litre of finished beer, (its worth noting that 1mg/L is the same as 1 ppm (part per million)).
Just to complicate matters Iso-Alpha sticks to everything, yeast cells, trub, the fermenter walls and particularly some filters, between wort and finished beer something like up to 30% of the Iso-Alpha can be stripped out.
Yes that counts as part of utilisation, yet all the equations only relate to wort bitterness with no mention being made of fermentation losses, except in a vague application of Utilisation as some sort of fuzzy fudge factor, without ever pinning down what it is or its components (yes this is the bit that has me banging my head on the wall).

Degradation, Ok we turn insoluble Alpha Acid into soluble Iso-Alpha, just for fun Iso-Alpha degrades in the kettle into what are called Trans Iso-Alpha breakdown products.
So to a kettle we add a known amount of AA (usually expressed in ppm) during the boil it converts to Iso-Alpha, from there it breaks down. This process is pretty thoroughly understood. The rate at which it undergoes both transitions means there will be a time when there is the highest amount of AA in the wort; the main governing factor is wort temperature, in general the peak AA concentration will be 120-140 minutes into the boil at normal wort boiling temperatures

Other factors
Temperature is the main governing factor (should be of particular interest to those talking about cube hoping) Tinsith refers to boil vigour; I suspect that this can be exchanged for wort temperature.
Availability, anything that prevents the AA from getting involved in the reactions that we want will reduce the resulting IBUs, this includes using flowers, hop socks or other devices that confine the hops.
Solubility Limit, there is a limit to how much Iso-Alpha will stay in solution, (in the same way as adding sugar to a cup of coffee, 1-6 teaspoons full make it sweeter and sweeter, from then on the sugar lies on the bottom and the coffee stays at the same sweetness). That limit is about 90 ppm (90 IBUs). That may well vary in hot wort, but when the wort cools (same for the cuppa above) ISO-Alpha will come out of solution.
Note
1/ that 90 ppm is as measured by HPLC, older methods (UV/VIS) report up to 110 IBUs this is because other hop constituents are being recorder.
2/ anyone that tell you they are making beer over 100 IBUs is having either you or themselves on. But remember all those other hop constituents? They do play a role in what the beer tastes like; I certainly cant define what will happen if you add massive amounts of hops early in the boil, except to say that the bitterness wont get over 90 IBUs so it might be worth looking at when you use your hops to get the most effect, ideas like early bittering additions with late Hop Burst, might be a better more economic of getting IBUs and other hop characters.
3/ Wort pH, that solubility limit is at a wort pH of 5.2, the solubility limit goes down either side of that point.

I have been looking at the work by Malowicki and Shellhammer this is a really fascinating piece of research View attachment Isomerisation.pdf
I have also put the two equations (11 and 12) View attachment IBU__s.xls into an excel spreadsheet if you want to have a ply, Tab 2 (equation 12) should put to rest the idea that a quick boil will get rid of the unwanted bitterness in a kit, you can plug in the Iso-Alpha concentration for a kit at the dilution you are going to boil it in and see what really should happen to the IBSs.

For those interested in the question of what happen in a no-chill cube when you add hops to the cube, by combining the changing the wort temperature as a function of time, someone with better maths skills than me should be able to write a simultaneous equation that relates all the variables. We know from TBs results that bitterness does go up, the equation above should allow for reasonably good prediction of how much.

But back to the original question, I dont know how much AA carries over from the kettle to the cube and whilst in the cube continues to be converted into Iso-Alpha, if you have whirl pooled well and arent carrying too much trub over with the wort, my guess considering the relative insolubility of AA would be Not Much; but thats a guess.

Dam but I do love brewing
MHB
 
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