Big Brewing Problem

[crozdog]

Do other people detect the same smell/taste at the same time as you do?

Whilst it is likely a bit of crud in a pipe or something like brett in a frementer, - the fact you can detect it during the boil is of concern.

Not being nasty or anything, but maybe you are very sensitive to that particular "infection" (for want of a better term) - after all some people can detect very low levels of DMS or diacetyl, where as others don't pick them

My suggestions are get some other opinions, tear down the solenoids / ballvalves, buy a new fermenter.

Don't forget to only change 1 thing at a time.

 

[muckanic]

I've had Brett infections before, but they took 3 months to reveal themselves. The bugs seem to be able to take up home in plastic and dodge the sanitiser. Boiling takes care of that.

I am a tad suspicious of no-rinse sanitisers, especially when they are based upon oxidants like iodine or peroxide, and also don't particularly like the idea of prolonged exposure of plastics to sanitisers. I have heard stories before of plastic fermenters absorbing chlorine-based sanitisers, then causing some raunchy hop reactions thereafter. It couldn't hurt to try flushing all plastics with a metabisulphite soak to neutralise the sanitisers, but then of course you run the risk of the plastic subsequently emitting sulphur and facilitating H2S, DMS, etc! :unsure: Also, I have heard sufficient stories about the difficulties of rinsing Nappisan that I have been dissuaded from trying it myself.

 

[newguy]

I am a tad suspicious of no-rinse sanitisers, especially when they are based upon oxidants like iodine or peroxide, and also don't particularly like the idea of prolonged exposure of plastics to sanitisers. I have heard stories before of plastic fermenters absorbing chlorine-based sanitisers, then causing some raunchy hop reactions thereafter. It couldn't hurt to try flushing all plastics with a metabisulphite soak to neutralise the sanitisers, but then of course you run the risk of the plastic subsequently emitting sulphur and facilitating H2S, DMS, etc! :unsure: Also, I have heard sufficient stories about the difficulties of rinsing Nappisan that I have been dissuaded from trying it myself.

Exactly why I ferment only in glass. And I use Star San.

 

[reviled]

I've had Brett infections before, but they took 3 months to reveal themselves. The bugs seem to be able to take up home in plastic and dodge the sanitiser. Boiling takes care of that.

I am a tad suspicious of no-rinse sanitisers, especially when they are based upon oxidants like iodine or peroxide, and also don't particularly like the idea of prolonged exposure of plastics to sanitisers. I have heard stories before of plastic fermenters absorbing chlorine-based sanitisers, then causing some raunchy hop reactions thereafter. It couldn't hurt to try flushing all plastics with a metabisulphite soak to neutralise the sanitisers, but then of course you run the risk of the plastic subsequently emitting sulphur and facilitating H2S, DMS, etc! :unsure: Also, I have heard sufficient stories about the difficulties of rinsing Nappisan that I have been dissuaded from trying it myself.

Mate, to be honest you do sound just a teensy bit paranoid... I use Iodophor, no problems so far... I also use Napisan, and since I started using it sucessfully got rid of a strange "twang" that I seemed to have in all of my beers... And its not hard to rinse the napisan off, you can easily tell when its been rinsed enough cos it doesnt have that slippery feel any more...

Ideally, we would all use Glass carboys, but they aint cheap!

 

[nabs478]

Thanks again for all your input.

I have not tried screwing with my filter, but it is 6 months old and it says the cartidges last for one year - Something to consider though.

I have left wort on a yeast cake for a long time, but the taste appears very quickly and dissipate sover time, so I dont think that is it.

I have tried puling apart the ball valves ont he kettle and cleaning them, but no the solenoid valves and the ball valve on the mash tun. I will citch the solenoids for the next bre wI do on that sysetm and pull down all valves.

Jazzafish - I have just bought two fresh wort kits and two Liquid Malt extract kits. I plan to do one fresh wort kit in an old fermenter that has had a normal sterlising attempt. And do one LME kit through my new 50L kettle and see how they go. If they are ok, I will do a small mash in my mash tun, then transfer it directly to the small kettle and see how that goes. I will not use the solenoid valves for that, and I will clean out all ball valves beforehand.

I took a sample to Grain and Grape today and got then to taste it. They say it is not Brett, and tastes quite astringent and not barnyard like at all. After the dicussion I think I have had brett to begin with and the problem has slowly changed into something else. The original ESB I did was heavily 'barnyard', that I am sure of, a few people tasted it and all agreed. Thne I think perhaps I may have done a couple more that had some brett, but with decreasing amount due to my sterilising regime that I slowly introduced - which makes sense as I cant see how I could be getting bacteria into the brews at the moment. They suggested perhaps mashing to high or over sparging. I am fairly sure that hasnt happened. I have a temp readout on the mash, the highest I have ever seen in during the sparge is 77.5C, and it is usually more like 74-75C. Having said that, it is a big mash, and could be hotter in some places than others, I wouldnt be surprised if some parts got up to about 79-80 in some cases, but probably not in all the batches that have exhibited this flavour. Could temps this high cause bad flavours?

Warren - DMS smells kind of like eggs or farts? If so, then defintely not. I heat the boil with the lid on, them remove it when it starts boiling.

Beernut - I definatley agree that sanitising my garage is a good plan, but I would be surprised if that was whats causing my flavour problems.

Crozdog - The guys at Grain and Grape didnt think the problem was that bad. It tastes awful to me, but inpart due to the fact that it is very bitter. I have always preferred a slightly less bitter brew. It isnt just the bitterness though, its also a bad taste that goes with it which they described as astringent, which I agree with. Some of the brews I have done have been tasted by mates, one in particular is a brewing buddy and everytimes except once he agreed there was a problem. A lot of my other freinds, who dont know much about beer dont seem to mind it at times, but I am unsure if some of them are just being polite....its usually my brothers who are the most honest and willing to tell me my beer is **** when it is - so its kind of hard to guage how much of what I taste is what John at Grain and Grape described as 'Cellar Palate'.

Reviled - I am very paranoid about this type of thing. I have brewed in the past many batches that would stand up to commercial beers. Now every batch sucks and despite the fact that some of them are just drinkable, they are still not good enough in my eyes - not to mention tipping out hundreds of litres of beer which is just way to gruesome to drink. I not only want to be able to brew great beer, but I really want to know what I have done (or not done) that has cause this to happen to increase my understanding of the process and practicle brewing knowledge.

I will run some experiments over the next week or so and get back to you guys with the results. any more ideas are more than welcome.

Thanks again.

 

[kabooby]

If you can smell it during the boil than you can rule out brett.

I would do as MHB said and do a water run. Taste the water along the way and see if the flavour appears. If it doesn't try tasting your grain. Your not keeping your grain in a barnyard are you :unsure:

Kabooby

 

[newguy]

Thanks for the extra information. This is near & dear to my heart because I had a hell of an astringency problem for years.

Most people equate astringency with bitterness. A cloying bitterness that just won't go away. In some cases, a tannin extraction problem can also cause a grassy character in your beer, like a freshly mown lawn. From what you've described, it sounds as if you may have a tannin problem. This is mainly a water pH issue, but the crush of your grain can be a factor.

You'll need some pH strips or a pH meter, but the strips are cheaper. Test the pH of your water - I'll bet it's over 8. If it is, you'll need to get your hands on acid (phosphoric or lactic) or some sauermalt (acidified malt) or some pH "fixer" like the pH 5.2 powder available from places like Craftbrewer. Whatever you do get, you'll need to find out how many ml per litre of water is required to get your water's pH down to the 5-6 range using your pH strips. Once you find this out, just use that much acid or fixer per litre to adjust your water and the tannin issue (astringency) should go away. My tap water is around medium hardness and it takes 1ml of acid per every 10l of water to get the pH right. 1ml/10l is probably a good starting point. Most people use around 3-5% sauermalt for pH adjustment, if you go that route.

You can also avoid acid altogether if you mix your tap water with reverse osmosis (RO) water. Start with a 50/50 mix and adjust as necessary to get the pH to ~7.

Regarding the crush, don't pulverise the grain. Cracked is all you really require. You'll know your mill setting is good when you can't find many (if any) uncrushed kernels, but yet there isn't that much flour.

 

[real_beer]

Hi Pip,

Get back to basics straight away.

Brew a batch of beer on your stove top with simple equipment like that used at the start of "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" or "How To Brew" etc.

Use a simple 19 - 23 litre recipe & chill the wort in an ice bath, drain into a new (or borrowed fermenter) give the yeast oxygen by shaking the fermenter. If this batch turns out okay, next batch do exactly the same but vary one element:

Use your oxygen bottle or air-pump to aerate the wort.
Or use your original fermenter.
Or chill down with your wort chiller etc.

If your beer turns out okay you've got good beer to drink & you know your problem isn't in the air (Have you been milling your grains in the same room you transfer your beer around in? If you have brew your next batch in another part of your home, don't mill in another area and keep brewing where you've been milling until you can eliminate this as a problem). Are your grains stored okay?

Have other brewers physically look over your system in person, maybe they'll notice a piece of equipment thats lost its coating and is reacting badly during the brewing process. Sometimes you can confront a problem for hours, days or weeks with no end in sight (I've done this heaps of times with computer programming problems), then someone else looks at it and solves it straight away because they see it from a different perspective.

Most importantly keep brewing with a simple setup while you sort out the bigger system so you keep your love of brewing intact. When it's all fixed you'll have the know how & knowledge to help the next poor sod in your present position. Don't give up!

Cheers :icon_cheers:
real_beer

 

[nabs478]

If there is one thing I am defintely not going to do, its give up.

I have just made three batches of beer yesterday. Two with fresh wort kits, one into a fermenter that has never had this problem and one into a fermenter that has. I also used a wort kit and boiled a brew and am currently no chilling it in my 50L kettle.

Real Guy - I think what you are suggesting is correct. On e batch I did recently was 150L. I split it into three 50L batches. One I chilled with my chilling circuit and pitched US-05. One I no-chilled in the fermenter and pitched US-05 and one I no-chilled and pitched Saflager (34/70 I think?). I fermented them in different places, pitched the yeast in different places. I thought at the tiome the only thing similar is that I sued the oxygen bottle on all, which I ahve sibnce sterilised - but I never thought that was really likely to have caused this. After reaidng about astringent flavours, it has all the hall makrs, particularly that 'cloying bitterness that just wont go away', that you describe. I have 4.0-7.0 pH strips and have tested water that goes into the HLT and it reads at 5.5, which sounds wrong to me. Perhaps the strips dont work well when they ar eout of the range of 4.0-7.0? Not sure. Or perhaps this can be caused be a low pH in the mash. Anyway,m I have to go on a long drive today, about 4 hours, and I plan on sitting in th eback and reading all about mashing, pH, water chemistry, tannin extract etc. and hopefully will give a at doijng a mash tomorrow on a small batch.

Will keep you guys posted.

 

[muckanic]

I have 4.0-7.0 pH strips and have tested water that goes into the HLT and it reads at 5.5, which sounds wrong to me. Perhaps the strips dont work well when they ar eout of the range of 4.0-7.0? Not sure. Or perhaps this can be caused be a low pH in the mash.

There's another possibility that hasn't been mentioned - not a high pH/tannin problem, but a low pH/dissolved metal problem. Most likely dissolved copper tarnish, although some oxidant sanitisers are caustic enough to corrode cheap stainless valves, etc, if provided with enough contact time. There hasn't been a sudden appearance of a nice shiny immersion element somewhere in the production line by any chance? Metallic ions can taste spectacularly bitter. Tannin just tastes like a lesser version of tea or red wine, and softens with age. In theory, the yeast ought to bind quite a bit of dissolved metal, although I guess it could reach some sort of saturation point.

Reviled, mate, as an indication of my level of paranoia, I frequently skip sanitisation altogether unless I am yeast farming. Washing-up liquid and a bit of elbow grease can go a long way, remaining mindful of the difference between the infection potential of fresh wort and fermented beer. However, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I am aware of previous cases where brewers have gone overboard with the sanitisation regime and have actually created more problems than they solved. Hence my comments about plastic absorption of chemicals. FWIW, my Brett infections have all occurred in PET bottles and I proved to myself that they didn't come from the plastic fermenter.

 

[daanmuller]

Barnyard (sweaty horse blanket) flavours are produced by Brettanomyces yeast. It's a desired flavour in lambic beers but not much good for anything else. It's notoriously hard to get rid of if it gets in your system.

Best thing to do would be to get a fresh wort kit (or standard kit) and see if your Brett takes hold then. If it does, it's in your fermenter(s) and you're better off just chucking them. If not, a full-on caustic run through your system followed by a phosphoric acid run (after rinsing).

Hopefully others will have more detailed help for you; I just skimmed over your post as I'm tired

I had something similar to this problem, A pale Ale I did had the same off smell, I pitched my yeast which i cultivated from a coopers pale ale.

How would you go about ridding Brettanomyces from fermenters, lines, air locks what ever?

CHeers

 

[Adamt]

Easiest solution is to throw anything out which you know has Brett in it.

As muckanic said earlier in the thread; once it is in plastic you're going to have trouble getting it out.

However it'd be best to find out for certain if it's your fermenter by running another batch through it.

 

[Effect]

Seriously Pip...not trying to joke around.

I would buy a whole new brewery and set up - that is just me - I could not be stuffed tinkering around for months + drinking substandard (in your opinion) beers.

I do admire how persitant you are with trying to find the problem and it will help others on here, but after pulling everything apart, cleaning with all different chemicals, boiling water and then sanitising, buying a new fermenter and doing much more..............if you still can't find the problem...I would bail.


PS: Have you tried anyother home brewers beer recently just to see if you are just highly sensitive to this infection (if it is an infection?)

Not sure if you have posted this - how fresh are your ingredients?

 

[Brewtus]

Pip, FWIIW,
1/ try using bottled water. You can get 15l jerry cans full at Coles etc. Won't cost too much for a 23l brew but could settle the water debate.
2/ Go and do a brew with another brewer and see what he (or she) does differently. See if you can detect the same smell.
3/ Change every thing or thoroughly clean/ sterilize at once and if it goes away as one bit at a time may allow the contamination to 'hide' in different parts and move back. Does it matter what it was if it is gone?
4/ If it is a grain problem than a FWK free from the problem will prove that.
5/ How can it be the fermenter if it can be smelled in the boil?
6/ No one has asked about your hops, do tell. Boil without hops for 10 min and see if you smell it.

good luck....

 

[jonocarroll]

If G&G reckon it's not Brett then I'd probably trust 'em. On that note though - I was up at a winery in the Adelaide Hills and the winemaker up there said he would usually end up with three or so barrels infected with Brett each year. He didn't worry about testing for it; if he thought he could smell it, the barrel got smashed up outside. Better safe than sorry I guess.

I hope you're problems clear up and you're able to get a brew that you're happy with. :icon_cheers:

 

[dr K]

Pip
Brett gets some pretty bad press.
Despite the barnyard bits at the beginning your problem (as others have pointed out) is not Brett.
Now Brett, despite being the fallboy for every second brewers bad beer problems these days is not all that easy to "get"..For starters it has to come from somewhere, it is a yeast but it is a very quiet but very persistent yeast, the Fabian of the Fermentation world you might say, then agian you might say vulture or even dung beetle.. You may find it on grape skins, you will likely find it on cherries but short of innoculation you are not likely to get it your beer and even if you do it will be dominated by the stronger yeasts and will only become apparent months at least down the track and even then the standard methods of beer storage (sealed oxygen proof containers) are not conducive to Bretts multiplication game.
Has anyone who has tasted the beer mentioned a possible pediococcus infiltration?
Ped is a much more likely candidate for infecting anyones beer than my mate Brett.
A small aside, beer does not have to be infected to be affected, chances of Ped or a heap of other little helpers not making its way into any of our beers is about Zero, its only when the conditions (which we control) allow that the casual visit becomes a home invasion. Ped is lactic acid producing bacteria but in the right conditions produces diacetyl. Ped helps make sauerkraut and is probably in your yoghurt and for that matter if your milk was not pastuerised in your milk as well.
Good luck in your quest...and report your results.

K

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

Hi Pip,

Just something simple but those peroxide sanitisers do have a used by date of generally about 2-3 years, if stored properly. By that I mean out of sunlight and away from heat.

The stuff that I use is Huwa-san from Jasol, and I spoke to them about proper storage. Huwa-san has silver ions to stabilize it so it has long shelf life, if it didn't it would basically turn into water in a matter of a few weeks.

So what I'm trying to say is maybe try another form of sanitzer such as starsan or use bleach and vinegar (as mentioned on this site in many places) which you haven't used before to hit the microbes with something they haven't been exposed too before.

Here is that thread of tony's that somebody mentioned when he had alot of trouble,

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...liters&st=0

Good luck with your quest to hunt down and smite the evil that lurks in your brewery.

 

[nabs478]

Thanks again for your input.

My two fresh wort kits have gone from 1060 to 1009 and taste good.

My LME, with a little DME, sucrose and a few cascade and amarillo hops tastes fine also. It was boiled in my new 50L kettle, no-chilled and I pitched US-05. It has gone from 1040 to 1021, so it still has a little way to go, but it tastes very clean right now, which is is not usual when tasting a brew from the fermenter tap half way through fermentation.

I also made a trippel. I made this trippel using my normal mash tun with the solenoid valve removed and the ball valve had been dismantled and cleaned before use. I lautered it directly into my 50L kettle, boiled, added hops and no chilled using he same routine as the LME/DME/Sucroe brew. I made a yeast starter for this one using some of the LME/DME brew and Wyeast 3787 (unfortunetly G&G only had one pack so the yeast starter mas a must!) and it has gone from 1080 to 1065. It has a very faint taste of the astringent bitter flavour. A bit hard to tell how bad it will be at this stage, but I am quite sure it is there. I monitored the pH and temp during the brew carefully. I mashed it at 65 C, but because it was only 11kg of grain in a big mash tun, by the time I had re-circulated it for a while it was down to 58 C and it still was not very clear. I used sparge water at 77 C (I mixed it up a lot to make sure there was no hot spots!), and the hottest the mash tun got according to my temp probe was 74 C. The pH was around 5.2 at the end of the mash and was about 5.2-5.3 when I terminated the lauter (gravity of run-off was 1028 at that point). All those figures sound exactly like they should be!

I think I can rule out hops as the DME/LME brew tasted fine. I am quite sure it is not a metal ion problem as the only non-stainless metals are the copper elements and one breass fitiing in the HLT, neither of which look remotely shiny. Akthough the brass fitting looks quite black. I have a friends who has brass in his kttle and it looks the same, but his beers tast efine

It seems at this stage I have narrowed it down to either something in my HLT, mash tun or the mashing cycle. I still think it sounds like astringency from the malt. I am leaning towards using some CaSO4 and perhpas some CaCl2 to treat my brewing water as per the article Stuster posted, using bought water from the supermarket, using a mates mash-tun anf HLT and sparging with water at 74 C and see how I go with that. I will also try another LME/DME brew in my small kettle and use the chilling circuit. I am kind of hoping to rule that out as it makes life very easy! If I can rule it out, I will contine to do extract brews and use it to ensure that it does not start causing problems again after I have ruled it out.

I will keep you all posted with results.

PS: Philip - I can not afford to build a new set-up, time-wise or money-wise. I have spent far to much time and money on my brewing set-up as it is. There is a simple problem, I just dont yet know what it is. I will find it, remove it and be a lot wiser (and richer) for it than I would be if a built or bought a new brewery.

 

[///]

Has anyone who has tasted the beer mentioned a possible pediococcus infiltration?

Yes - the old Scharers filler was full of it. Pull everything apart, clean clean and clean. pH is key, target mash 4.9 - 5.4.

Insterestingly, you mention keeping 'beer on yeast for a while'. Are you at ambioent temps, ferment it, get to target gravity, D-rest it for 2 days and get it the hell off and cold!

Scotty

 

[Darren]

Hi Pip,

I admit I haven't read all of your posts, they are soooooooooooooooooooooo long. (your not pistol patch by any chance??)

I notice you do not post any recipes. If you have harsh bitterness in your beer, chances are it is simply over-hopping with a harsh hop.

From your descriptions, your problem is evident well before a microbial contaminant could take hold so I would say you can easily rule out "spoilage"

What hops, how much would help.

cheers

Darren