Biab Stout....using Pilsner Grain As Base

[sid]

Hey all, I'll be doing my 1st stout BIAB next week starting with 40ltr and ending with around 30ltr, 90 min mash 90 min boil.... mash out and cool.
thought I'd get your advice on the grains in my recipee, 8 grains in total.....this might be too many, but I've got em here to use.

was thinking of mashing at 66c for a reasonable thin stout.........how do I get a dry stout?

recipee follows

5.00 kgPilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM)Grain70.4 %
0.50 kgBrown Malt (65.0 SRM)Grain7.0 %
0.50 kgRoasted Barley (300.0 SRM)Grain7.0 %
0.30 kgChocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)Grain4.2 %
0.20 kgBarley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgCarafoam (2.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgCaramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgRye, Flaked (2.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
30.00 gmSuper Alpha [13.00%] (60 min)Hops33.4 IBU
15.00 gmWilliamette [5.50%] (45 min)Hops6.5 IBU

any advice would be a help on this, I like guiness so hopefully this won't be too far off the track.

 

[seemax]

If you want to use up left overs go for it...

I've had good success with a basic ale / choc malt / roast barley combo , single bittering hop (40IBU) and a high attentuation neutral yeast such as Nottingham. Dry and crisp with nice simple roasty flavours.

 

[manticle]

Use a higher percentage of roasted malts (black, choc etc) for a drier style. Mashing around 64-65 will probably help too.

Usually when designing a recipe, I try and consider what each grain will bring to the mix. Does each one have a purpose? Simple is often better - the more complex ones I've done tend to taste muddled unless only very small amounts are used.

For example will the brown malt supply any flavour that will stand out over the blacker malts or the crystals? Will it add anything to body or head retention etc? What will the rye do?

I'm not questioning the presence of those particular malts per se as I haven't used them - just suggesting judicious use rather than 'chuck it in cos it's there'.

 

[NickB]

Have just kegged this tonight, and after a quick force carb, it's by far the best stout I've brewed. Based on DucatiboyStu's Pillar of Stout...



Recipe: Pillar of Stout MK II
Style: 13E-Stout-American Stout

Recipe Overview

Wort Volume Before Boil: 30.00 l
Wort Volume After Boil: 22.00 l
Volume Transferred: 21.00 l
Final Batch Volume: 20.00 l
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.040 SG
Expected OG: 1.055 SG
Expected FG: 1.014 SG
Expected ABV: 5.4 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 48.7
Expected Color: 52.4 SRM
Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 18 degC

Fermentables
UK Maris Otter 2.710 kg (50.6 %) In Mash/Steeped
Australian BB Traditional Ale Malt 1.690 kg (31.6 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Roasted Barley 0.385 kg (7.2 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Pale Chocolate Malt 0.250 kg (4.7 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Black Malt 0.225 kg (4.2 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Carafa II 0.095 kg (1.8 %) In Mash/Steeped

Hops
Australian Super Pride (15.1 % alpha) 20 g Loose Pellet Hops used 60 Min From End
Australian Tettnang (4.7 % alpha) 30 g Loose Pellet Hops used 20 Min From End

Other Ingredients
Koppafloc 1 g used In Boil

Yeast: DCL S-04-SafAle English Ale

 

[Smashin]

Hey all, I'll be doing my 1st stout BIAB next week starting with 40ltr and ending with around 30ltr, 90 min mash 90 min boil.... mash out and cool.
thought I'd get your advice on the grains in my recipee, 8 grains in total.....this might be too many, but I've got em here to use.

was thinking of mashing at 66c for a reasonable thin stout.........how do I get a dry stout?

recipee follows

5.00 kgPilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM)Grain70.4 %
0.50 kgBrown Malt (65.0 SRM)Grain7.0 %
0.50 kgRoasted Barley (300.0 SRM)Grain7.0 %
0.30 kgChocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)Grain4.2 %
0.20 kgBarley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgCarafoam (2.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgCaramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgRye, Flaked (2.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
30.00 gmSuper Alpha [13.00%] (60 min)Hops33.4 IBU
15.00 gmWilliamette [5.50%] (45 min)Hops6.5 IBU

any advice would be a help on this, I like guiness so hopefully this won't be too far off the track.

Manticle raises a very good fundamental point in understanding what each ingredient brings to the beer. I after heading south now also subscrivbe to the kiss principal.

First up Guiness is a dry stout, give your question Re: "how do I get a dry stout?" I'd raise the following points (IMO).

1. Mash at lower temps (~64)
2. Choc, Carafoam & caramel/crystal will all add to body, sweetness and push the finished beer away from a perception of dryness.
3. IMO keep grist to english pale (Marris otter) and roast barley.
4. Pilsner Malt (to me) brings out a honeyness in a beer (to sweet IMO).
5. Keep your hop additions to bittering only.
5. Never used rye in a dry stout but give it a run, bready notes may make up for using the pilsner malt in place of an english ale maly.
6. You haven't specified a yeast but i'd keep it to a very neutral yeast and ferment at the lower end of that yeast preferred temp range, use a diacetal rest if the yeast is prone to it (not to style). (IRISH ALE YEAST)
7. More roast barley (say ~700-1000g). My taste is more for the lower end.
8. Just to it.
EDIT 9. Try cold steeping your roast barley overnight to minimise the astringency, again a step towards the dry stout you seek.

Smashin

 

[Screwtop]

Hey all, I'll be doing my 1st stout BIAB next week starting with 40ltr and ending with around 30ltr, 90 min mash 90 min boil.... mash out and cool.
thought I'd get your advice on the grains in my recipee, 8 grains in total.....this might be too many, but I've got em here to use.

was thinking of mashing at 66c for a reasonable thin stout.........how do I get a dry stout?

recipee follows

5.00 kgPilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM)Grain70.4 %
0.50 kgBrown Malt (65.0 SRM)Grain7.0 %
0.50 kgRoasted Barley (300.0 SRM)Grain7.0 %
0.30 kgChocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)Grain4.2 %
0.20 kgBarley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgCarafoam (2.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgCaramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
0.20 kgRye, Flaked (2.0 SRM)Grain2.8 %
30.00 gmSuper Alpha [13.00%] (60 min)Hops33.4 IBU
15.00 gmWilliamette [5.50%] (45 min)Hops6.5 IBU

any advice would be a help on this, I like guiness so hopefully this won't be too far off the track.

Far from Guinness but looks good, I do love Super Alpha and Willamette (Fuggle) too :lol:

Screwy

 

[sid]

ok then guys thanks.

Reason for the brown malt was to try and add that nuttiness to the stout, hopefully it wouldn't be over ruled by the roast/choc grains, I hope it would achieve a note in there somewhere...carapils was for head retention and the rye and barley flakes was for the body/flavour. yeast will be US-05 from a previous brew.

yeh that mash temp sounds good at 64-65, I take your advice there.........probably got more room to play around with doing stout, than some of my other ales.

the pillar of stout mk 11 looks interesting.............I see my raost and choc grains are much the same %, shame I have to make do with a pilsner base an ale grain would have been better.

 

[sid]

Manticle raises a very good fundamental point in understanding what each ingredient brings to the beer. I after heading south now also subscrivbe to the kiss principal.

First up Guiness is a dry stout, give your question Re: "how do I get a dry stout?" I'd raise the following points (IMO).

1. Mash at lower temps (~64)
2. Choc, Carafoam & caramel/crystal will all add to body, sweetness and push the finished beer away from a perception of dryness.
3. IMO keep grist to english pale (Marris otter) and roast barley.
4. Pilsner Malt (to me) brings out a honeyness in a beer (to sweet IMO).
5. Keep your hop additions to bittering only.
5. Never used rye in a dry stout but give it a run, bready notes may make up for using the pilsner malt in place of an english ale maly.
6. You haven't specified a yeast but i'd keep it to a very neutral yeast and ferment at the lower end of that yeast preferred temp range, use a diacetal rest if the yeast is prone to it (not to style). (IRISH ALE YEAST)
7. More roast barley (say ~700-1000g). My taste is more for the lower end.
8. Just to it.
EDIT 9. Try cold steeping your roast barley overnight to minimise the astringency, again a step towards the dry stout you seek.

Smashin

some good points there..........I could drop that crystal, not really needed. I'll up the roast to 700g.

Never thought of cold steeping the roast grain.........damn I'll do it, heheh, easy enough to try.

I'm off the guiness clone (I'll blame the pilsner base for that).....but it'll give me a rough guideline for the next stout.

 

[manticle]

2. Choc, Carafoam & caramel/crystal will all add to body, sweetness and push the finished beer away from a perception of dryness.

I agree with most of the things you said but two things I have an issue with.

1. I 've never known choc malt to contribute a noticeable sweetness. Crystal/cara yes, choc no.

2. As far as I'm aware (and I could easily be mistakene) a diacetyl rest occurs when a beer has been fermented low (eg: a lager@ 10 deg. C). It is done by bringing the beer up in temp (to around 20 deg. C) and is usually done for lagers. In the case of an ale, what is your suggested regime?

 

[Swinging Beef]

If pils is the only base malt you have on hand, then go for it, but I recommend, likeeveryone else here, you keep your fitst recipe simple.
Pils, Choc or Roast, maybe some cara for sweetness, but nothing else.
Then NEXT time, and there will be a next time, build on what you made to design your next beer.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Diacetyl is a really quite common flavour component in many stouts... notably australian/export stout (certainly not "dry" stout though) so "not to style" is bit of a generalisation.

Manticle - Diacetyl is produced by all yeasts, some more than others and some fermentation conditions more than others too. You get rid of it where its not desirable in the same way - let the yeast finish their job, maybe help them along by bumping the temperature up slightly after the main fermentation is finished and giving them a day or so of warm conditioning before you chill them back.

 

[Bribie G]

I have made uber complicated stouts and they have turned out a bit muddy and cloying, I would follow the advice and keep your first one simple. Nothing wrong at all with Pilsener Malt.

With diacetyl rest for ales, I've found the best bet is to warm up to a tad over 20 degrees at the end of the fermentation and just keep them there for a few days. It also depends on the yeast. For example I deliberately rush ales made with Wyeast 1768 and they are almost guaranteed to develop diacetyl, which I like in some ales :icon_drool2: . For those who came in late, diacetyl is actually a very popular additive to confectionery such as Werthers butter drops.

 

[sid]

hey ya guys.

some good advice here, I've simplified the recipee for this stout like you've said.........so heres the the new version...........I was still tempted with the flaked rye however, I have never used this aparently it's quite strong in it's flavour and adds a dryness to the beer.........is this used in stouts at all?

5.00 kgPilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM)Grain 79.4 %
0.60 kgRoasted Barley (300.0 SRM)Grain 9.2 %
0.55 kgBarley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)Grain 8.4 %
0.30 kgChocolate Malt (450.0 SRM)Grain 4.6 %
30.00 gmSuper Alpha [13.00%] (60 min)Hops 34.3 IBU
15.00 gmWilliamette [5.50%] (45 min)Hops 6.7 IBU

 

[Smashin]

Diacetyl is a really quite common flavour component in many stouts... notably australian/export stout (certainly not "dry" stout though) so "not to style" is bit of a generalisation.

Not a generalisation at all, very specifically talking dry stouts here in the first instance of my post.


Sid, looking good mate. Shoud be a nice drop.

 

[manticle]

Diacetyl is a really quite common flavour component in many stouts... notably australian/export stout (certainly not "dry" stout though) so "not to style" is bit of a generalisation.

Manticle - Diacetyl is produced by all yeasts, some more than others and some fermentation conditions more than others too. You get rid of it where its not desirable in the same way - let the yeast finish their job, maybe help them along by bumping the temperature up slightly after the main fermentation is finished and giving them a day or so of warm conditioning before you chill them back.

So in the case of an ale, leaving the brew on the cake has a similar purpose to a 2 day rest when making lager and might be considered a 'diacetyl rest'?

 

[Smashin]

So in the case of an ale, leaving the brew on the cake has a similar purpose to a 2 day rest when making lager and might be considered a 'diacetyl rest'?

Basically yes, diacetyl is produced in the first stage of fermentation and more as the pitching temp is increased. Once the beer/wort is depleted of nutrients the yeast turn back to consume the diacetyl. Increasing the temperature accelerates this process, hence generally raising the temp a few degrees for a few days is adequate for ales and most lagers.

 

[manticle]

Ok. Cheers

The day I stop learning is the day I stop brewing.

I knew diacetyl was a by-product of fermentation and that leaving it on the cake after primary would help clean it up. I also knew some people ramp up temp slightly in latter stages to ensure ferment is finished but I'd never assocaited that as a diacetyl rest. Usually I just leave it in the fermenter for around 5-7 days before crash chilling at the same temp.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

you just have to taste your samples thats all... if there is diacetyl you dont want, leave it a bit longer. Easy.

 

[sid]

I haven't noticed any Diacetyl in my BIAB's, But then I ferment at a low temp in my ales around 16c.

One thing I was wondering though, when doing a stout would it pay to add anything to the mash/water for a stout, my mashes in the past have all been at around 5.2, so that i take it is reasonable, slightly acid. For a stout the dark grains would drop this PH reading wouldn't it?.........do I need to add anything to make a better stout?.

I need to read up on the soft / hard water issues of brewing.