BIAB astringency issues, please help!

[Kylerichards26]

Currently on batch #25 and astringent issue have only surfaced on past 5 batches, seems to have coincided when i stopped using (2 tsp) 5.2 stab (because of the bad rep it gets) and started adjusting water chemistry and mash pH.

So current adjustments are:

32l very soft water (Ca:6.8, Mg:2.8. Na:15, Cl:9.8, Sulphate:8, Alkalinity 39)
2tsp gypsum
1 tsp CaCl

And Citric acid to bring down mash ph to 5.2-5.6 (measured with pH meter). Mash pH b4 acid addition is always around 5.8

Astringent issues are only with APA IPA etc, with latest APA having significant permanent haze (after 3 weeks in keg)

Anyone have any comments on what he deal might be? am thinking either my pH meter is stuffed (I calibrate b4 use) or citric acid is messing me up or 5.2 ACTUALLY HAS SOME BENEFIT???....

Cheers!

 

[Diesel80]

Looks complicated mate. Could be something simple like using Galaxy in too large quantity etc. That sh1t's like acid if not careful.

I BIAB, in Perth, fill up out of the garden tap (only recently with a proper water hose), no chill so have backed off hops quantities a little and my beer is pretty smooth, AFTER the initial keg tartness on achieving force carbonation. Carbonic bite some refer to it as. It goes away, or poor a frothy pint and let it settle.

Sound like you are on a witch hunt there with the water PH and science nerd stuff (not having a go, some people really love this side of the beer scene, and good on them - but it can stop you seeing the forest for the trees).

Have your recipes changed recently? Used a different type of grain / spec malt / hop or yeast in last few batches?

Maybe post a recipe of a batch that showed the issues.

Good luck mate you will get it sorted!

Cheers,
D80

 

[Kylerichards26]

Thanks D80! Recipes are not exactly the same but in terms of base malt proportion and hop additions nothing has changed. All pretty standard recipes really nothing super crazy.

Its ironic that getting more technical on the water side of things I have ended up with a worse product. I might just try forgetting about the chemistry, add a tsp of gypsum and 5.2 then saying she'l be right!

 

[Diesel80]

Back to basics mate. She'll be right!
:beerbang:

 

[klangers]

Try adjusting the water chemistry with salts only; no acid. When you do this, you should be calculating how much salt you need for the brew you are brewing. Pilsners will be great with your unadjusted water profile, a stout will require more salts to avoid an excessively acidic mash. You could be adding too much salts which will buffer the effect of your acid addition.

If you are adding acid, you should only be adding it to your sparge water. The aim of this is to reduce the astringency.

Now, sulphates will enhance hop bitterness. You could be adding too much gypsum (calcium sulphate). Have you decided on your target ppm of sulphates, calcium, chlorides etc? Do you weigh out your salt additions or only base it on a teaspoon measurement? This may not be accurate enough; based on a quick calculation (and google telling me 1tsp of CaCl = 13.56 grams), your CaCl addition contributes 424 ppm... this is pretty high.

I recommend that you have a look at John Palmer's brew water calculator spreadsheet. It works for me.

 

[acarey]

I went through the astringency witch hunt a while ago.

In the end it turned out not to be astringency, rather just super bitterness from not adjust hop additions for no chill properly (or at all).

Try doing exactly the same thing that produced an 'astringent' beer but chill instead of no chill. See how that goes.

Alternatively move your hop additions back 15 minutes or so. For example I used to put 15 minute additions in just before cubing, let it pasteurize the cube for 10 minutes the chuck it in a cold bath.

Just suggestions. May or may not be your problem. Good luck

 

[Kylerichards26]

Hi Guys thanks for suggestions,

i use an immersion chiller, reach pitching temp 15min after whirlpool (15min rest)

As for salt additions I target 100-150ppm Ca (8g or 2 teaspoons), and 50ppm Cl, and 100ppm SO4

As i do BIAB I dont sparge.

It is my understanding because of the higher water to grain ratio it is more important to adjust ph as the acidification from malt is diluted.

But I think your right klangers, has to be some reaction with my salt and acid additions

 

[Rocker1986]

In the end it turned out not to be astringency, rather just super bitterness from not adjust hop additions for no chill properly (or at all).

I don't bother adjusting hops for no-chilling and have had no issues with this at all. Just goes to show that there is no standard when it comes to that - you have to work it out to suit your own tastes. B)

 

[Droopy Brew]

If your problems have coincided with a change in process (ie swapping out the pH5.2 for other additions) then it is unlikely to be a coincidence.
Go back to your old method for one beer and see if the result changes.

Someone smart once said eliminate the most obvious solutions first or something to that effect.

 

[manticle]

Tongue puckering combined with haze sounds like a hop issue but go backwards and make a standard apa with just straight water. Then make one with just a small gypsum addition.
Then one with a small cacl2 addition.
Then one with both.

I highly doubt you need the acid in most instances but have you actually measured mash pH to see if you do or are you just winging it? Maybe you are just over acidifying. Work backwards, keep it simple. 5.2 is a magic formulae containing magic ingredients that are supposed to work magic. Let Gandalf go on holiday and you work out adjustments by reading, testing and tasting then tweaking.

 

[pat86]

I'm interested to know if there was a big issue with standard tap water (I'm on mobile so can't see where you are)?

Sounds like it is water related, but scouting for other possible causes - anything different with your malt milling or temp probe / thermometer?

 

[Vrtigo]

If you are adjusting your water with Calcium Chloride and Sulphate is there any need to add citric acid?

So long as you have 50+ ppm Ca you should be able to extract sugars effectively but maybe having the citric acid in there is dropping the pH too low and allowing you to also extract astringancy from the husks of the grain?

I BIAB in Melbourne and find that, so long as I get 90+ppm Ca I can get 70-75% efficiency without astringancy.

I have also heard Jamil Zainerchef talk about aiming for 70% efficiency +/- 5-8%. Too low and you are wasing your money, too high and it will become astrigant. What is your efficiency at the moment?

 

[technobabble66]

Fwiw, in soft Melbourne water, I'm adding what I think is a fair amount of both gypsum and calc-chlor and that all gets my calcium levels up to 50-60ppm (from memory). If you're boosting yours to 100+ppm then maybe you're putting in too much gypsum - ie: too much sulfate.
2 tsp in 32L (down to 21L I'm guessing) doesn't sound excessive.
However that's what stood out to me in your process.
High sulfate will bring out more hops bitterness, which might be what you're detecting. I've heard a few people find sulfate additions produce a harsher bitterness to their tastebuds. Maybe you're also one of those people.
2c

 

[rude]

I have been on the water ph adjustments using Brun water have used the yellow bitter & malt profiles

I bought a set of weight scales .01 of a gram accuracy plus use RO water

I do 25 litres but on a 3 vessel system & have found a huge difference for the better

I also use acidulated malt 50 to 100g the last few brews for ph only geussing no meter

Cant comment on the citric acid

I threw some keg hops at my last brews & they were a bit hazy but I didnt give them much chance to clear kegs gone in 3 weeks :blink:
but they were clearing & coming into their own

Must be more patient before sampling

Cant wait to brew more using the pale ale profile

I say keep at it check all measurements & read up more about the process it works