Beersmith - What Am I Doing Wrong?

[Phoney]

Ive made a few extracts now where ive plotted in the recipes into beersmith, and the measured OG has been around 20 points higher than the predicted OG in BS. It's got me puzzled as to why, the only reason I could possibly think of is the "generic liquid extract" in BS might not be as strong as the LE I am using (which is Morgans or sometimes Coopers). Someone here sent me Australian_ingredients.bsm which has the Coopers extract range, but I find whenever I add in the coopers extract the colour ends up almost black - even though im using Coopers Pale LME..and the predicted OG is still far lower than my measured OG.

Just to give you some examples, here are two recipes which ended up 20 points under in BS:

Both of these gave me a measured OG of 1070.

Recipe: Hefeweizen Extract
Style: Weizen/Weissbier
TYPE: Extract
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Boil Size: 26.22 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 7.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 13.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.00 kg Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 75.0 %
0.50 kg Carapills (2.0 SRM) Grain 12.5 %
25.00 gm Tettnang [4.90%] (60 min) Hops 13.7 IBU
0.50 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 12.5 %
23.00 L Sydney Water Water
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast-Wheat


Mash Schedule: None
Total Grain Weight: 4.54 kg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recipe: Belgian Wit
Style: Witbier
TYPE: Extract
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 27.37 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 15.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 17.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.50 kg Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 31.3 %
1.50 kg Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 31.3 %
0.60 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 12.5 %
0.40 kg Wheat, Torrified (1.7 SRM) Grain 8.3 %
55.00 gm Styrian Goldings [3.00%] (60 min) Hops 17.5 IBU
0.35 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.35 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.80 kg Candi Sugar, Amber (75.0 SRM) Sugar 16.7 %
23.00 L Sydney Water Water
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) Yeast-Wheat


Mash Schedule: None
Total Grain Weight: 4.54 kg

Thoughts?

 

[cdbrown]

I would be checking the hydrometer in water to see what that says. Or you're not topping up to 23L. For the first brew, 16L will give you the OG you measured - haven't run the numbers for the 2nd.

Also make sure to put in the correct boil size to get the right IBU.

Edit - the 2nd brew should be put in as partial mash in beersmith not extract, this changes the OG to 1.059

 

[peas_and_corn]

I would definitely agree with the above post that you're actually filling the amount you think you are. Apparently Coopers' fermenter markings are wrong.

 

[Scruffy]

The Coopers fermenter markings start counting 'above' the tap i.e. the stuff you'll get out...

I notice your brewhouse efficiency is - %, if you manually change this (to 70%), does it alter any other parameters...

 

[Phoney]

I would be checking the hydrometer in water to see what that says. Or you're not topping up to 23L. For the first brew, 16L will give you the OG you measured - haven't run the numbers for the 2nd.

water is dead on 1.000

Incorrect measurements on the fermenter is an interesting thought, it is a coopers fermenter. I guess I will try and compare it with the accuracy of my jerry can..

 

[peas_and_corn]

The Coopers fermenter markings start counting 'above' the tap i.e. the stuff you'll get out...

I notice your brewhouse efficiency is - %, if you manually change this (to 70%), does it alter any other parameters...

Not my fermenter, the lines go all the way to the bottom. There's a 5L line a bit above where the tap is.

I doubt that beersmith would be so silly as to apply efficiency percentages to extract...

 

[Phoney]

The Coopers fermenter markings start counting 'above' the tap i.e. the stuff you'll get out...

I notice your brewhouse efficiency is - %, if you manually change this (to 70%), does it alter any other parameters...

Yeah, I just changed my second recipe to Partial and set the efficiency to 70% and it's bumped it up to 1.059 (at 23L)

It is actually accurate if I plot in 19L. :huh:

 

[cdbrown]

I've never bothered to actually check the true volume of my fermenter. For a while I was just pouring to about handle height and would always get slightly higher OG than expected, when fiddling with beersmith it showed I was consitently making the batch about 20L. Now I go up above the handles and am getting the right OG (and pretty much FG) each time.

Another question - why is it reporting 4.54kg of grain for both brews. The first is only 4kg, the 2nd is 4.8kg.

 

[Scruffy]

Not my fermenter, the lines go all the way to the bottom. There's a 5L line a bit above where the tap is.

I doubt that beersmith would be so silly as to apply efficiency percentages to extract...

Oops - meant to finish the post by typing 'DO the lines...'

Also because I read the recipe and it said total grain weight '4.54KG' - you're correct though, no % change for extract - what a clever programmer!

Has anyone been as anal as me and filled their fermenter/pot with a measuring jug? - and notch your own marks on the fermenter...

I've done similar to the mash spoon (so i can see the volume by standing the spoon my brew pot)

sorry... OT

 

[Phoney]

Also make sure to put in the correct boil size to get the right IBU.

hmm. Ive got a 19L pot and I usually do about a 9L boil. Would I be right in selecting Brew Pot (3 Gallon) ?

If that's the case, my IBU's have just halved for all of my beers

 

[cdbrown]

Untick the "Set Boil Volume Base on My Equipment" and then manually enter the boil volume.

When you do a boil how much extract do you put in before the hops? 9L boil needs about 900g of LDME or 1.2kg of LLME to get an OG of around 1.040 for hop utilisation.

 

[Phoney]

Another question - why is it reporting 4.54kg of grain for both brews. The first is only 4kg, the 2nd is 4.8kg.

NFI..

Ive attached the recipe .bsm if anyone feels kind enough to check it out for me

When you do a boil how much extract do you put in before the hops? 9L boil needs about 900g of LDME or 1.2kg of LLME to get an OG of around 1.040 for hop utilisation.

I put in one tin of extract (1.5kg) into the steep or mash water, by the time I splash in boiling water to clean out the tin it's probably more like 10 or 11L. Then I add in the second tin at flameout.



Scruffy, I reckon putting your own markings on the fermenter is a brilliant idea.

Cheers

View attachment Belgian_wit.bsm

 

[jbirbeck]

Has anyone been as anal as me and filled their fermenter/pot with a measuring jug? - and notch your own marks on the fermenter...

I've done similar to the mash spoon (so i can see the volume by standing the spoon my brew pot)

sorry... OT

:icon_offtopic: Yep sure have...The spoon I have not but I'm going to. :beerbang:

 

[Stuster]

That reports a grain weight of 4.8kg for me. The OG Beersmith suggests looks to be right to me.

Was the extract added to the kettle or did you add it to the fermenter?

 

[cdbrown]

For the pilsner and torrified wheat - beersmith says you need 2.6L water for the mash, then use the same for the sparge.
The dark colour is coming purely from the Amber Candi Sugar - remove it and see that it's not dark at all.

I have changed yours to 9L boil, and also changed the wheat and candi sugar to be add after boil. Only 1/3rd of the pale extract is added to the start of the boil for the hops. The rest of the extract can just be tipped into the fermenter, doesn't need to be boiled. Candi Sugar should be boiled for the last 10-15mins.

Still only get 1.059 OG.

View attachment Belgian_wit.bsm

 

[Phoney]

Was the extract added to the kettle or did you add it to the fermenter?

to the kettle.

One before I start the boil just after ive lifted the grain bag out, and one after ive finished the boil.

For the pilsner and torrified wheat - beersmith says you need 2.6L water for the mash, then use the same for the sparge.
The dark colour is coming purely from the Amber Candi Sugar - remove it and see that it's not dark at all.

I used 3L for the mash & the sparge, where does it tell you how much you need for the mash?

the colour was pretty well spot on, the candi sugar was quite dark.

I have changed yours to 9L boil, and also changed the wheat and candi sugar to be add after boil. Only 1/3rd of the pale extract is added to the start of the boil for the hops. The rest of the extract can just be tipped into the fermenter, doesn't need to be boiled. Candi Sugar should be boiled for the last 10-15mins.

ahh, I see what you did there

thanks heaps, I think I might be on the right track now..

 

[cdbrown]

It sounds like you either didn't add enough water, or the water wasn't mixed through thoroughly enough so that you have the 9L or so of the boil at the bottom which you are measuring and the water is on top. Must make sure that it get's a really good stir and aeration before taking the OG - having the temp around 24 helps as well.

 

[buttersd70]

to the kettle.

One before I start the boil just after ive lifted the grain bag out, and one after ive finished the boil.

for the one added after the boil, make sure you double click on it in the recipe, and tick 'add after boil' - otherwise it will calculate it in the boil gravity, which will effect the hop calculations.

 

[Phoney]

It sounds like you either didn't add enough water, or the water wasn't mixed through thoroughly enough so that you have the 9L or so of the boil at the bottom which you are measuring and the water is on top. Must make sure that it get's a really good stir and aeration before taking the OG - having the temp around 24 helps as well.

ta...

I tip the wort into the fermenter, then add water which mixes it thoroughly. I thought about it filling the tap with concentrated wort so I took two measurements. First one was 1082 second was 1070.

The temp was 14C. I cooled my wort down a bit too much, oops.

It's amazing the amount of little mistakes you make and the way you get the process mroe down pat each time in your homebrewing journey :icon_cheers:


EDIT ps: Did you work out why it's reading Total Grain Weight: 4.54 kg ?

 

[Bribie G]

In relation to your other question about Coopers liquid malt extract - liquid malt extracts darken as they get older and if they sit on the shelves of home brew shops for a year or so they can darken horrendously. The only time I ever bought a LME was a Morgans Australian Pilsener and a tin of Coopers LIGHT liquid malt extract and the beer turned out nut brown. A mate gave me a Muntons (UK) Bitter which consists of two cans of wort and malt extract and it turned out the colour of creosote. In both cases the stock had been presumably sitting on the shelves for yonks.

LHBSs stock these items to ensure they have a good stock range on display but I would guess that the major movers are the beer kits and a lot of the other stuff just sits and sits and sits.


If using liquid malt extract I would try to find an 'old fashioned ' supplier who has the honey container on the counter and you bring your own tupperware. Else use LDME which doesn't have this problem.