Bad Brews

[mxd]

Background, AG, No Chill.

My ales (esb, apa) have had this flavour that I cant figure out what it is, it started around November/December.

The flavour is hard for me to describe, I have thought astringency (dry), oxidization (cardboard), but now I think its a ethyl acetate or phenol flavour (a bit medicinal and solvency)



To try and solve the issue I have done the following.

1) Chill the cube to fermenting temp before pitching yeast (ferment in freezer)
2) Swap to dry yeast
3) Set up herms
4) Add calcium to water
5) Stop drinking whilst brewing

I just finished fermenting 3 brews on Saturday (2 APAs yeast -> US05 and an ESB yeast - Nottingham), they were down for 15 days (10 at 18, 2 at 20 and 3 at 2), I then put them into kegs and started force carbonating (24 hrs 350kpa), when I went to try them the APA has the same issue as the last batch of APA (its just drinkable, lost all its hop aroma) but the ESB is revolting. I think the issue ethyl acetate (solvency) or maybe a bit of is Phenol (medicinal) ?

I was looking though the yeast book and 1 concern I had was if its Phenol a cause could be chlorine in the water or leaving chlorine in the fermentors etc.. I use napisan and then rinse then starstan, for my fermentors and kegs.


I will bring a sample to the next Melb Brewers meeting so they can share my pain.

One last fear I have if the issue is from brewing, I have 9 cubes, so was wondering if any near Mulgrave (who kegs), who would like to ferment one of my cubes (I will supply the cube, yeast and a clean keg) and then keg it. Please let me know, that may assist in diagnosing the issue to fermting (which I hope it is) or brewing.

Thanks
Matt

 

[Leigh]

Interesting you post this Matt, I am having similar issues starting at about the same time. Solventy, thin, silky mouthfeel and no hop character...in fact whether its a red ale, ipa, golden ale or amber ale, they all end up tasting identical! The first two kegs to develop this taste (no taste present when kegging) were carbed at room temp before going in the kegerator and had the flavour almost straight away. The last two kegs, after everything was bombed, were carbed in the kegerator, and now after 4 weeks are developing the same taste! If I fill a bottle before the taste develops, and store it at room temp, the taste devlops quicker.

Has me beat, have washed and sanitised everything, stripping everything down to components, have everything marked to isolate different equipment but the problem appears to be independent of equipment.

I have 4 cubes on the shelf that are not infected (no swelling of cubes and still "squashed") that are from the same batches as the four beers above, and the brew I did at the weekend that sat in the fermentor for 3 days before pitching without any change in sg (I wanted to see if it was a wild yeast in my fermentation process).

I suspect something in the water that is not killed by starsan and is active at low temps. My next step is to get some iodophor and replace the no-rinse sanitiser.

May or may not be related, but over the same period I have also gone from 65% efficiency down to lows 50's with no change in my methodology, just a change in water supply!

Got me buggered!

 

[Cortez The Killer]

What sort of hoses are you using?

Tried a new fermenter?

Cheers

 

[Andyd]

I suspect something in the water that is not killed by starsan and is active at low temps. My next step is to get some iodophor and replace the no-rinse sanitiser.

Don't forget, iodophor is also a no-rinse sanitiser. If you're rinsing after you've sanitised, you might as well not sanitise at all!

Andy

 

[unrealeous]

What sort of hoses are you using?

I was thinking about your hose problem that you blogged about Gino... some plastics leach bad flavours especially when hot.

Some more things to try
- Use a range of sanitizers. I regularly mix it up my sanitation regime by using different products - ie Starsan or Iodopher, and then finish off with boiling water.
- Boil (pressure cook is even better) your taps, hoses, fitting etc in addition to your sanitation regime.
- Brewing outside under trees - A bit of hear-say, but I recall someone saying the wild yeast off a particular type of tree was giving regular infections - and their solution was to cut them down!

Don't forget, iodophor is also a no-rinse sanitiser. If you're rinsing after you've sanitised, you might as well not sanitise at all!

Unless of course you are rinsing with boiled water.

 

[brettprevans]

Matt I've got empty kegs and fermentors if u want to try that. I'll be at next Melb brewers meeting.

I suppose it could be a mild lingering infection. Clean the shit out of kegs, taps, lines and see. Also maybe invest in a water filter on the off chance that's contributing.

 

[mxd]

the hoses in the brewrig are silicon.

The hose to fill the water for the brewrig is a caravan "drink" safe one.

The hose from fermenter to keg is silicon, that goes through the napisan treatment, then rinse then sits in the keg that has gone through the napisan/rinse treatment then 3 - 5 ltrs of water ans star stan.

I have fermented a Lager and an IPA in the same time without the same issues ?

I currently have 3 more fermenting now (2 lagers and an ale) so will see if they have the same issue.

 

[mxd]

Matt I've got empty kegs and fermentors if u want to try that. I'll be at next Melb brewers meeting.

thanks mate, might take you up on that,

suppose it could be a mild lingering infection. Clean the shit out of kegs, taps, lines and see. Also maybe invest in a water filter on the off chance that's contributing.

I thought it may have been in the kegs, so the last clean they all got totally pulled down, I will pull them down again and try some tougher things on the lot that are going to be filled with the next lot out of the fermenters

 

[brettprevans]

I had a slightly phenolic taste in one of my lines that I think was a mild infection in the keg. It could just be that. I'm not overly fussy with my keg cleaning regeime but it seems to be gone now that I've cleaned the crap out of it and the beer lines. Fermentor could be the other issue. I doubt its your hose or connections. That's more likely to result in a full blown infection than a mild off taste. I suppose it could be a bit of grain getting into the boil as well. Perhaps recirc for a little longer. Although u rims so it shouldn't be an issue.

PM me if u want to do the keg thing. I can pretend I'm a BOP owner!!

 

[reVoxAHB]

Definitely get your beers to the next meeting where multiple experienced/qualified tasters can nail down the fault (and work from there).

Shooting from the hip but I'm thinking chloral phenol (& permeation of your plastic gear)? I know you mentioned not using chlorine in the brewery.. but are using it nearby, ferm fridge, the floor at mopping? Anywhere in the house?

Instead of giving someone a cube, keg, etc. why not try 1 batch where you:

1.) Chill (borrow an immersion coil or PC from a melb brewer) and go straight into
2.) ferm in glass (borrow a glass carboy or wine demijohn) with proper airlock.

consider PBW over napisan with appropriate no rinse sanitiser.
consider pre-filtering your brewing water.

Best of luck
reVox

 

[Leigh]

Matt, sorry for the hijack

Don't forget, iodophor is also a no-rinse sanitiser. If you're rinsing after you've sanitised, you might as well not sanitise at all!

Andy

I don't rinse after sanitising, what I'm suggesting is the starsan aint killing something. Here's my sanitising process:

Up to and into the fermenter, everything is "sterile" due to the boil, I sanitise the fermenter with starsan, but also tip it around like my no-chill cube once the hot wort hits it...as I say, out of the fermenter, all is fine. Bottles straight from the fermenter are fine. Bottle filled from the keg obtain the taste.

Kegs and kegging equipment are only sanitised with starsan (made up exactly as per recommendations on label).

All lines are either silicon (hot side), or beer lines (cold side). Everything cold side (post fermentation) has been stripped and soaked in hot PBW and then starsan and assembled with starsan foam everywhere.

It's in the kegging system, but PBW/Starsan aint touching it whatever it is! Or it's being reintroduced in the water with the starsan. I'm thinking some form of acid tolerant lactic acid bacteria. Hence I'll try iodoform which should hit any acid tolerant beasties! After that, I'm at a loss.

 

[felten]

Hmm this is interesting, I've had the same persistent flavour in my recent beers as well that sounds very similar to this. I first noticed it in my spent starter beer, and I've had the same taste in my last 5 out of 6 beers, all brewed with different ingredients. It's very hard to put my finger on it, at first I thought burnt or astringent, but now it seems more like stale or maybe oxidized.

At first I thought it was the malt/yeast I was using, so I used different malts/yeasts. Then maybe it was something in my kettle/siphoning gear, so I gave it a good clean and changed a few plastic parts. Then I thought maybe it was my starter vessel or using reclaimed wort from the kettle trub, so I bought an Erlenmeyer and some DME, but it was still present in my spent starter. If it's an infection it does a pretty good job to survive a boil in an Erlenmeyer covered with foil, and then transfer from a sterilised wyeast package over a flame.


My wort post boil and out of the cube tastes fine, and the first few days of fermentation seem fine. But after a few days and especially towards the end of fermentation the smell and taste is really noticeable for me, and it persists through to the bottles as well. I have given samples to my parents to try but they can't pick it up, and tell me I'm imagining things.


Its really defied explanation to me, I was brewing the same way I did before I picked up this problem, and I've tried to improve since then but to no avail. It's really killing my desire to brew if the batch is just going to turn out bad to my tastes. I'm now thinking it has to be something in the water since it's been present in all my starters and I'm going to try rain water and dry yeast next time around.

 

[InCider]

There may be something in the air - a long shot admittedly. Remember Tony nearly went around the twist with persistent infections and had cleaned everything to within an inch of it's life? It turned out to be a very fine mould on the walls of his brewery. IIRC he actually tasted it, and it was the same on his palate as the infection in the beer.

InCider.

 

[donburke]

looks like you guys experiencing this flavour are all in melbourne,

common denominator would be the water

did anything change to water supplies that coincides with the timing of these flavours ?

 

[gareth]

Very interesting I seem to be having the same problem. Im doing a troubleshooting brew tomorrow, in preparation Ive switched to caustic soda to clean the hell out of the fermenters and instead of using Starsan Ill be using Oxonia tomorrow. Anything that gets into contact post boil will be caustic sodaed and oxoniaed first.

Ive also noticed that the spray bottle I use for the Starsan has a very strong Starsan smell, I sprayed some on my hand and could still smell it an hour later.
Ive checked the Starsan Data Sheet and it indicated that it should be almost odourless.

 

[Leigh]

Don, What happened in November/December? The rains started and our dams started filling. In January we had flooding (albeit mild compared to elsewhere). Hence my pointing at the water.

InCider, Interesting. Will keep my eyes peeled

 

[eamonnfoley]

BUMP

Did this one ever get resolved??? A very specific issue experienced my multiple brewers...........

 

[mxd]

I think mine was a batch issue (all 3 cubes bad) but some fermenter was used to produce some good beers, I am also now more consistently using brewing salts