Automating A Brewery

[Wortgames]

If you wanted to use a computer to automate some of the basic timing and temperature functions of a brewery, where would you start?

Presumably you would need some kind of serial interface to connect relays and sensors to, and a program to run it?

Is there anything off-the-shelf which would lend itself well to this?

Building an automation system from scratch is probably a bit beyond me, but I reckon I could have a good go at customising a 'universal' solution if such a beast existed...

 

[JasonY]

How far are you looking at going? I have messed with some of the PC stuff and to be honest I found it to be a pain in the ass to have a PC in the brewery and eventually gave up. There are a number of PC based interface boards for reading data in and energising contacts. Not sure there are any good of the shelf software programs to match them with however.

If I embark on this again I will most certainly go for a cheapo PLC which has a few analog inputs for temperature measurement and a bunch or relay outputs. Something like this may fit the bill however I have not used one so can't vouch for it.

I think in the end to do a good job it will cost a bit but certainly be fun.

 

[Wortgames]

Hi JasonY, to be honest I fancied taking a fairly 'organic' approach - start off with something that can manage an HLT element, for example, then expand to include switching the pump and perhaps a valve or two.

I've got an old laptop gathering dust that is worth nothing but should (hopefully) be capable of handling a couple of sensors and relays given the right interface. I can sit it up out of the way at the end of the 'brewery' so I'm not too worried about that.

To start with I would be happy to just get an alarm signal when a target is met, but over time to add a bit here and there, and slowly get it to handle more bits of the process.

I think it would be great fun to 'program' a brew, especially if I could get a real-time view of what's happening, what I'm waiting for and what happens next. It would be good to see real-time temperatures too. I might even be able to program in an "add Irish moss now" alarm...

I guess the software is the key - I was guessing that hardware and software would go hand-in-hand - is this not the case?

 

[barls]

im looking in to a similar thing but as a temp control for frementing ill let you know what i come up with

 

[ArnieW]

If you wanted to use a computer to automate some of the basic timing and temperature functions of a brewery, where would you start?

Presumably you would need some kind of serial interface to connect relays and sensors to, and a program to run it?

Is there anything off-the-shelf which would lend itself well to this?

Building an automation system from scratch is probably a bit beyond me, but I reckon I could have a good go at customising a 'universal' solution if such a beast existed...

Hi Wortgames,

take a look at:
HERMAN brewing machine

It's my home-grown machine/obsession. It sounds a bit like the kind of thing you'd like to do, although I'm not sure my own stuff is all that user friendly at this stage.

The system currently uses a PC with my own program to control a pic micro that does all the magic with interfaces I've built myself.

But I'm working on a new rig that will be much more modular and easier to use, so if you can wait a bit, maybe I can help.

But feel free to ask questions.

cheers, Arnie

 

[Shunty]

A guy from work is helping me build a microcontroller unit for the brewery, based on an ATMega32 chip

At this stage it is only controlling heating and cooling in the fermenting fridge, however there are a heap of outputs (32 total from memory) including pulse witdth modulated outputs for controling element temp via SSR's. The chip can take multiple sensors on the same 3-wire line, we are setting it up to average 3 sensors in the fridge for temp readings. The box outputs 12v to switch external relays

From memory the chip was about $15 NZ, LCD screen $30, and about $30 in misc parts - plus it is a heck of a lot smaler than a pc

Pics to come

 

[Wortgames]

Neat site Arnie, good work! I guess that's pretty close to what I had in mind.

I fancy a PC & software system for ease of use and real-time intervention, I thought about the chip style but I don't think I'd be happy with the fiddly interface and from what I can work out you more or less need to 'flash' them with your settings before use, then stick to them?

It just struck me that a PC based system could start off as a basic script, timer, thermometer and remote control with very few devices - then as time and money permit you could add a valve here and a pump there and interact with more and more of the tasks.

Unfortunately I have no experience in this area so I don't have a clue what is available (or even where to look), but I'm guessing there must be some kind of customisable PC-based automation systems out there.

Whats the DSE stuff you used Arnie? The link in your site seems to have evolved since you posted it.

I keep looking at the Jaycar catalog too, there's probably something in there that would do the trick, but it's all Greek to me at the moment!

 

[ArnieW]

Whats the DSE stuff you used Arnie? The link in your site seems to have evolved since you posted it.

I keep looking at the Jaycar catalog too, there's probably something in there that would do the trick, but it's all Greek to me at the moment!

Hi again Wortgames.

The site is not really up to date. The pic micros are based on the picaxe system from this mob:
Revolution Education

I've long since ditched the parallel interface, although it might still be useful under the right conditions. I love the picaxe system because it is cheap, simple, easy to program, easy to interface, and simple to have things like digital temperature probes for accuracy.

You could run a system on picaxes alone (see my 'Fridge Controller') or use them to work with a PC. In the system I'm currently building I'm working on the idea that the picaxes use some onboard intelligence to work out what should be happening, but the PC acts as a coordinator to automate things. The picaxe works as a semi-automatic controller, but the PC holds all the discrete bits together and can control the whole system if needed.

There are commercially made interface boards (Jaycar, DSE and others) that will interface to a PC, but the picaxe manual gives you many interface ciruits as a starting point. I have done a lot of looking at micro chips and these seem to be the best entry level chips and very easy compared to most.

For about 5 years now I've had a PC running my brewery, and it doesn't really matter what you have hanging off the PC so long as it does the job of switching large currents (in my case up to 15A) safely.

cheers, Arnie

 

[ArnieW]

Another thing I should have mentioned is that you can get "free" copies of VBexpress from Microsoft which will do the PC programming quite nicely (you can also do C I think).

So there is no excuse not to dabble if you are that way inclined.

cheers, Arnie

 

[Wortgames]

So there is no excuse not to dabble if you are that way inclined. :beerbang:


So you reckon VB Express is the go for running the thing? I programmed some BASIC as a kid, is it anything like that?!

I picture something like this as the program, how realistic is it?:

1. Timeswitch turns on in the morning, begins heating the HLT, triggers the program to start
2. HLT reaches temp, program triggers 'dough in' alarm (or later, opens valve to fill mash tun from HLT)
3. Program times the mash while monitoring temp and triggering heat as necessary
4. Program triggers 'sparge' alarm (or in future triggers valves & pump as necessary)
5. Program times the boil, alerts for hop additions (& Irish moss!)
6. Program monitors the temp during the chill and signals when cooled.

Even by automating the first bit I reckon I could get a big head start on brewday by waking up when it's ready to sparge :super:

After that it's all icing on the cake.

Would a simple parallel (or serial?) interface be capable of handling this, with real-time status display? Would the addition of a picaxe help or hinder the PC dsplay? What sort of specs should I be looking for in an interface / picaxe?

It's going to be a steep learning curve so I want to keep it simple, but I always prefer learning from other people's mistakes and set myself up from the start for success

:beer:

 

[ArnieW]

I picture something like this as the program, how realistic is it?:

1. Timeswitch turns on in the morning, begins heating the HLT, triggers the program to start
2. HLT reaches temp, program triggers 'dough in' alarm (or later, opens valve to fill mash tun from HLT)
3. Program times the mash while monitoring temp and triggering heat as necessary
4. Program triggers 'sparge' alarm (or in future triggers valves & pump as necessary)
5. Program times the boil, alerts for hop additions (& Irish moss!)
6. Program monitors the temp during the chill and signals when cooled.

I do all of this and more currently with my system. The only things not yet implemented properly are auto ball valves and my level sensors are still a bit intermittent.

I found that a parallel interface can be quickly limiting, but with serial devices you can easily put them on a common line and address modules individually.

The picaxe gives you the option of having an intelligent processor without a computer, or you can make the two work together. I mainly use them as interfacing devices, but they have much more potential than that.

I find VB to be good because basic is easy for a casual programmer to get the hang of, and the visual part of it means you can draw what your screen will look like. Check out HERMAN program for a dodgy looking screen shot of my home brew program. It will give you an idea at least of what the thing is capable of.

cheers, Arnie

 

[crozdog]

Wortgames,

you might want to have a look at the PLC's available from Onetemp (web site here).

Prices start @ $145 + gst for a 10 i/o unit The configuration software is windows based & is FREE! You can download the manual & softeare off the above web site to check out how tt use it.

Onetemp have offices in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane & Adelaide. They also sell a range of sensors 7 other bits you may need.

No affiliation blah blah etc.

Crozdog

 

[Wortgames]

Dammit, I really am running out of excuses not to get into this :super:

What's the difference between a PLC, a PICAXE and an ATMega32? Are they more-or-less the same beast just from different manufacturers, or totally different technologies?

Arnie, I love that screenshot! I want one...

 

[sqyre]

Hey,

I dont know much about programing or anything like that but someone once posted a link on here somewhere in the forums about a thing called a labjack. It's a USB I/O box thingy that takes tempreture probe whatchamacallits and all sorts of switching relay thingys and...... doo-lackys. :blink:

Check it out here.
http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/data_acqui...labjack_u12.htm

When i was looking in to it i found a neat program that lets you draw circuit diagrams and create control panels just by draging and dropping components onto the screen.

You can download a demo but only use 10 components.
http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/pcb_softwa...ilab-expert.htm

Its a bit pricey but it looks like its a fairly easy thing to setup
especially for us blokes who CAN build Dicky Smith stuff but still can't program a video recorder.

 

[ArnieW]

Hey,

I dont know much about programing or anything like that but someone once posted a link on here somewhere in the forums about a thing called a labjack. It's a USB I/O box thingy that takes tempreture probe whatchamacallits and all sorts of switching relay thingys and...... doo-lackys. :blink:

Check it out here.
http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/data_acqui...labjack_u12.htm

When i was looking in to it i found a neat program that lets you draw circuit diagrams and create control panels just by draging and dropping components onto the screen.

You can download a demo but only use 10 components.
http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/pcb_softwa...ilab-expert.htm

Its a bit pricey but it looks like its a fairly easy thing to setup
especially for us blokes who CAN build Dicky Smith stuff but still can't program a video recorder.

Good find Sqyre,

there was nothing like that around when I first started my experimenting in 1999 or 2000. Just the DSE parallel port interface.

Looks like a versatile and simple/easy to get running option, but you do pay for it. I'd guess that temp probe is based on an LM35 which costs less than $5. But with a cable and a nice looking protective shroud you pay $60 for the privelege.

Still, looks good.

cheers, Arnie

 

[chimera]

Looks a lot like work.

My fermenter temperature controller is a reprogrammed oxygen analyser, uses LM35 sensors and switches a relay to control an electric blanket.

Ive also written numerous controller systems for industrial & military use, and i'll concede the code has been adapted from numerous sources, one being a HLT from a HERMES homebrew system.

Lastly, anybody who wants to pay $60 for the privelege of a LM35 protective shrouded on a cable, send the money to me, ill make one for you!

 

[Wortgames]

I just Googled LM35, looks like they are probably a good choice for accurate temp sensing?

Would they be compatible with all the options mentioned above?

 

[chimera]

To be suitable for your use you'll need a device with an analog input scaled something similar to 0-1000mV.

Providing that it would be quite suitable for a PLC or a PIC controller.

 

[ArnieW]

Hi Wortgames,

you can use an LM35 with Picaxe and the labjack. For it to be ideal with either system, you'd want to amplify it. Straight out of the box, the picaxe will give you 0.5 degC resolution, but this can be improved with an amp. The alternative (and what I use) is a DS18B20 which is a digital temperature probe that the picaxe can read. It is very accurate and stable. It is capable of reading to a ridiculous number of decimal places. In my system I read in 0.1degC steps. I've got both in my electronics kit, cos you never know when you might need them.

There are many ways to do what you want. A PLC is an industrial strength controller that would certainly do what you want. You will still need to think about interfacing though. The other chips will be more versatile but take longer to work a solution out.

Arnie

 

[chimera]

Wortgames

if you're looking to automate, probably the first thing you want to do is draw up some sort of system diagram. Include all the temperature sensors, level sensors, heater elements, pumps, solenoid valves etc.

Assuming you're looking to hook up a computer to be the brains of the operation, you'll need a series of analog inputs for things like temperature sensors, digital inputs for level sensors, digital outputs to drive relays which will switch your high voltage stuff like heaters, solenoids, pumps etc.

One device im familiar with is a national instruments USB I/O module. Sub $300 you get a device with 8 12-bit ADC inputs, 2 12-bit DAC outputs, 12 digital I/O lines, which sould be enough for all but the most complex HERMES system.
Dont have a linky, look up NI USB-6008
Its all compatible with LabView software which I believe you can integrate into visual studio.

Once you go down this path, you'll have to source relays, rewire your system via relays into the IO board, and if you get this far then you get to start the fun part of writing software to control and later hopefully automate the system.

Some of the RIMS systems people have build up and have displayed on the internet are brilliant, shows many smart people drink & brew. Im happy to help you out with this, im a research engineer/embedded systems programmer by day, and believe beer related hobbies should could easily involve computer programming, control systems, mains voltage switching, automation loops etc, just as long as you've still got one hand free to hold your beer.