Automating A Brewery

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I don't really know, to be honest. It depends a bit on how much work it is getting access to real time information off the labjack via VB.

I'll try and find out some more on Monday. I'm going to call back Ocean Controls, and hopefully get a bit more info regarding the 'interactiveness' of PLCs, I'll also see what they've got to say about using LabJack with VB Express.

LabJack comes with some software, it's a bit confusing trying to work out exactly what though. I'll grill them about it on Monday.
 
Here is my setup using a PC running Linux, some DS1820s and a relay board which I put together for about $20.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=10518

Hopefully soon I will also be using it to controll my BIAB mash temps.

Also talked some BS with Pat about having a winch controlled. Imagine this automation:

Night before: fill kettle with water, bag with grain.

Automation begins in the morning: water is heated, winch lowers bag with grain, wait 90 mins maintain temps, winch out bag, begin boil. Hop addition would still need to be done by someone.
 
I realise there is a whole thread going on at the moment about using an immersed grain bag, but I was thinking more along these lines:

1. Timeswitch activates HLT at some ridiculously early time in the morning.
2. HLT reaches temp and switches off.
3. Valve opens, empties HLT into mashtun (mashtun already contains grist, hot liquor is underlet).
4. Mash timer begins. Coffee machine turns on.
5. Alarm sounds when initial mash stage is complete and coffee is ready.
6. I get out of bed to the combined aromas of maris otter and arabica.

:super:
 
I realise there is a whole thread going on at the moment about using an immersed grain bag, but I was thinking more along these lines:

1. Timeswitch activates HLT at some ridiculously early time in the morning.
2. HLT reaches temp and switches off.
3. Valve opens, empties HLT into mashtun (mashtun already contains grist, hot liquor is underlet).
4. Mash timer begins. Coffee machine turns on.
5. Alarm sounds when initial mash stage is complete and coffee is ready.
6. I get out of bed to the combined aromas of maris otter and arabica.

:super:


WG, I would definately think about what tasks you want to automate now and in the future. Personally I can't see full automation being worth the effort.

Steps 1 - 4 yes but I would want to have a mash stirrer or something to make sure I don't have a dough ball.

Automated fly sparging would be cool and I only mean in terms of controlling the water from HLT to mash tun not the runoff rate. you would need to set the run off rate but then tell the system to finish the job.

Auto hop adder as shown in the system above would be good too!

Apart from that the only other things I would hope to achieve (assuming things are in the same room) would be monitoring the fermentation fridge & possibly changing setpoints on it for lagers etc?

If I ever get to it I will be striving to make it have wireless connectivity so I can watch stuff from in the house. Can't say I am anywhere near it now however :)

Very interesting to see ppls setups as they go through this!
 
I agree, full automation would be costly and probably of little benefit (unless you were brewing on a daily basis or you were a techno freak anyway).

I have independent temp controllers for my ferm fridges, so they aren't part of the mix at this stage, and while looking at ferm temperature graphs may be mildly interesting I can't really see it improving my beer or making life easier.

It is fascinating to see the 'extreme techno' systems with web interfaces etc, but at this stage all I want to do is to automate some of the more tedious tasks on brewday (mainly timing, temperature and liquid level control) and also reduce human error by laying out every step of the process in advance and sticking to a script.

To a certain extent, even a real-time computer program that didn't actually interface with anything would be helpful - something that would step through the process, time key events and keep me to the master plan. Obviously where it gets exciting is when it can measure and control a few sequences while it is at it.

It just strikes me that it would be great to limit my own potential damage on brewday if I am distracted by other things. A buzzer would alert me to impending tasks, like rearranging some hoses or adding hops, and ultimately I would just assist the program to do the brewing.

So how's this as a prototype software 'brief':

The ideal interface would have 2 windows. The first window would be a graphical representation of the brewery, along with thermometers at key points and perhaps liquid level indicators, pump status and 'active' pipe indicators. It would allow the user to override some things, for example to switch off a valve or pump if necessary or adjust a set point. Think of this as a central 'remote control' for electrical components as well as an easy way to confirm things like temperatures. In an advanced stage, this could even trigger an alarm if temperatures were not within a certain range, which might signal a closed valve for example.

The second window is a 'brew program' that steps through in real time, much like video editing software. Perhaps you could have a separate 'track' for each output, and you could drag the bar to your desired start and end points. At any time you can see what is currently occurring and what is about to happen next (and when, or what it's trigger will be). It could even have a 'dead man' check-box that you use to confirm that manual tasks such as rearranging hoses or opening valves have been completed ready for the next stage to occur automatically. At any time this script can be 'paused' for manual intervention, and resumed from a different point (this is what PLC's cannot do, it seems).

Of course, half the fun will be in tweaking it each time to polish the process or incorporate a new piece of automation once it has proved to be reliable, so it needs to be relatively easy to rearrange or insert new routines.

How's that? :super:
 
Wally

Would i be correct in saying you can program them in C as well? If so I may be able to sort something out for you (I work with a couple of C geniuses)

Cheers
Andrew
 
I made a soluniod from a 1/4 turn ball valve and a central locking actuator years ago.

It worked awsome as a fuel switch-over in my custom built landcruiser.

best thing about the central locking units they are pretty strong and you just have to reverse the polarity to push the other way...

Just cut the handle off about 15-20mm up drill ahole and position the central locker so on full extention its fully closed and on retraction the valve is fully open..or viseaversa..

Takes a little mucking with the initial setup but works a charm..



Dunno if this helps with anything... :huh:
 
I made a soluniod from a 1/4 turn ball valve and a central locking actuator years ago.

It worked awsome as a fuel switch-over in my custom built landcruiser.

best thing about the central locking units they are pretty strong and you just have to reverse the polarity to push the other way...

Just cut the handle off about 15-20mm up drill ahole and position the central locker so on full extention its fully closed and on retraction the valve is fully open..or viseaversa..

Takes a little mucking with the initial setup but works a charm..



Dunno if this helps with anything... :huh:

Sqyre

That is one of the smartest things I have seen writen in ages. I was about to go down the track of little motor drivin 1/4 turns after being unable to locate and cost efective pnumatic actuators. I have a hand full of central locking solaniods in the shed too.

Regards Derrick
 
I made a soluniod from a 1/4 turn ball valve and a central locking actuator years ago.

It worked awsome as a fuel switch-over in my custom built landcruiser.

best thing about the central locking units they are pretty strong and you just have to reverse the polarity to push the other way...

Just cut the handle off about 15-20mm up drill ahole and position the central locker so on full extention its fully closed and on retraction the valve is fully open..or viseaversa..

Takes a little mucking with the initial setup but works a charm..



Dunno if this helps with anything... :huh:
Hi Sqyre, nice idea.

My achilles heel with inventing is a tendency to over-complicate things. I know these solenoids pull quite a load, but I wonder how they'd go with a hot ball valve? I've got a set in my bits box, so I'll have to give it a go sometime.

cheers, Arnie
 
I know these solenoids pull quite a load, but I wonder how they'd go with a hot ball valve?
I can't see this being a problem at all, especially as one of the key technologies in central locking systems is bits of wire bent to the appropriate shape :D
 
I thought this only worked in Sci fi :blink: :blink: :D
Only when there are fluctuations in the warpcore.... :p
 
I've been fidgeting like a naughty school boy today. I made this in Photoshop - what do you reckon?

wfbs.jpg
 
I've been fidgeting like a naughty school boy today. I made this in Photoshop - what do you reckon?

View attachment 9350
Hi Wortgames,

good work, a good way to start the process of automation. My own screen schematic shows in a simple form the status/configuration of the brewery. The physical layout matches the important bits (at least in my mind) of what is actually happening. There are of course many ways to do this. I'd suggest you do whatever makes sense to you.

The devil is in the detail, especially when it comes to writing code to control things. You will soon realise all the things you'd never thought of before. I've approached it from a quality assurance point of view. My code effecively leads me through predictable steps towards a consistent quality. Even if I know what is going on, the program will give me reminders of which chemicals to add to the mash at exactly the right time. Even if I know that at the end of boil I should turn the kettle off, the machine will automatically turn it off unless I override it ...

I found a good place to start was to document all the little bits on a real brewday - like take a note of every time you turn a ball valve on or off.

The other bit I've come to realise is that the machine needs to work well - be a configuration you're happy with - be free of problems like stuck recircs etc - before you begin the work of automating. My rule of thumb is that if I can brew without problems (it took a long time to fix leaks, air in the line causing the pump to perform poorly, a false bottom that couldn't handle things etc.), then I am ready to inject some artificial intelligence into the machine.

:super: Arnie
 
Good points Arnie, but I really want to keep the automation side of things flexible enough to be able to start using it much earlier. Essentially create a kind of 'universal remote control' that will let me link and edit processes according to my whim, rather than plan out the entire thing beforehand (which will probably never happen, I am always changing something).

My system is fairly basic really, it is all separate parts which get plumbed together on brewday. I may incorporate it all into a compact rack like yours one day, but for now it fits me and my facilities.

I currently use hoses and quick disconnects to 'repatch' lines rather than using hard pipes and valves, and I am happy to continue with a largely manual approach to things like priming pumps and tweaking flow rates, but like yourself I want to eliminate human error as much as possible and go for consistent and repeatable results by, for example, always monitoring temps at the same places, timing things accurately and having the next process ready to go at the touch of a ball valve or at a target value being met.

One of my problems is that I brew so infrequently. It is a major investment of time, and I feel like I am starting from scratch every time which reduces my efficiency. So some automation of basic steps and a blow-by-blow plan of attack would both be really helpful to keep me on track and to babysit certain things while I'm distracted.

Are you aware of any software that would give me that sort of real-time access to add, edit or remove upcoming command lines, pause the 'script' etc? Do you reckon it would be doable in VBE?
 
Are you aware of any software that would give me that sort of real-time access to add, edit or remove upcoming command lines, pause the 'script' etc?
Not really - although the labjack stuff you were looking at might do that kind of thing. I have done it with my own system, and you are welcome to the code (it is a hack job and not well documented - details are a weakness :(

Currently I have a system where I write a script that is specific to my own machine. The code reads a line of script and then figures out what to do with it. I can pause the script, go to any position in the script, and insert manual commands at any time.

You might find there is enough of an example there to figure out your own system, although in reality you would have to re-write it for whatever bits you have hanging off the PC.

Do you reckon it would be doable in VBE?
Most certainly. I've done it in VB6 and intend to re-code with VB2005 (but that is still a long way off).

Arnie
 
Stumbled across this site whislt I was looking for a cheap PLC for a project I am working on. US259 for 8 Analog IO and 16 Digital IO - this would seem to be any amount for a brewery.

http://www.lt-automation.com/T100%28e%29.htm

The PLC monitoring ability is provided by Modbus - which allows communicatios to any number of HMI type SCADA packages - some of which allow free access to some of their functions - or a limited number of IO points or 'tags'.

Whilst 'dabbling' in VB to get interation with your process might seem 'do-able' to some - an interface to a PC based HMI package would definitely be more mainstream.

RM
 
I'll certainly take you up on your kind offer Arnie, I think a copy of your existing software will be invaluable in figuring out what I need to do.

I spoke to Ocean Controls again. The PLC's may lend themselves to intervention, but unfortunately all the documentation is Chinese and the controls themselves aren't very intuitive. The consensus seems to be that they are probably not ideal.

LabJack looks quite promising however. It comes with something called DaqFactory Express software, but there don't seem to be any examples of that on the website. There is another option called ISEE which is $45, I have downloaded the trial version of that but it makes no sense at all without the labjack. Finally there is the ProfiLab Expert software for $165 which looks quite impressive and there's a trial version available. Screenshots and info here:

http://oceancontrols.com.au/pcb_software/b...ilab-expert.htm

Apparently though, the labjack is pretty versatile and should be fully compatible with VB. It comes with a swag of DLLs and its own ActiveX control, and it is designed to integrate with a range of systems.

So I'm thinking maybe I'll start off with a labjack, and give ProfiLab a run to see what it can do. If ProfiLab is no good the LabJack should still be a good start for setting up my own control.

Thanks again to Sqyre for posting the LabJack info - it looks like it may be the best option!
 
Stumbled across this site whislt I was looking for a cheap PLC for a project I am working on. US259 for 8 Analog IO and 16 Digital IO - this would seem to be any amount for a brewery.

http://www.lt-automation.com/T100%28e%29.htm

The PLC monitoring ability is provided by Modbus - which allows communicatios to any number of HMI type SCADA packages - some of which allow free access to some of their functions - or a limited number of IO points or 'tags'.

Whilst 'dabbling' in VB to get interation with your process might seem 'do-able' to some - an interface to a PC based HMI package would definitely be more mainstream.


OK, that looks pretty interesting too. It certainly looks like you can interact with it in terms of pushing buttons on and off.

I'm confused again now.
 
Stumbled across this site whislt I was looking for a cheap PLC for a project I am working on. US259 for 8 Analog IO and 16 Digital IO - this would seem to be any amount for a brewery.

http://www.lt-automation.com/T100%28e%29.htm

The PLC monitoring ability is provided by Modbus - which allows communicatios to any number of HMI type SCADA packages - some of which allow free access to some of their functions - or a limited number of IO points or 'tags'.

Whilst 'dabbling' in VB to get interation with your process might seem 'do-able' to some - an interface to a PC based HMI package would definitely be more mainstream.

RM
Wow, great find RM. The price rocks, as do the features. I do like the idea of wireless control, and remote internet control.

I used PLCs in industry nearly 20 years ago. They certainly have come a long way. Makes me feel a bit nostalgic looking at ladder diagrams though.

Wortgames, I think this might be more suitable than a labjack. Worth reading up on at least. I've just read the circuit cellar review and I want one ... Pity I've invested so much time and effort into a custom system. :blink:

keep inventing, and brewing great beer,
Arnie
 

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