Australian Brewers Association

[Andyd]

Given that I feel that "eeew, its American....." is insufficient reason - Whats so wrong about wanting to capitalize on the work and organization that other people have already done? I am a member of the AHA already and if they organised and event or a comp in Australia, I would happily enter it. As would I take their assistance in helping to promote the cause of beer and brewing in this country.

I agree there is a great educational benefit from being aligned with AHA - I'm talking with folk from the AHA to get a feeling for what did and didn't work with their conferences, and trying to apply that knowledge to what I'm doing with ANHC. Hopefully that will make the event even better than it already would have been.

For the record I'm an AHA member too, but the only tangible benefit I get from being a member is Zymurgy. None of the money I give them goes toward anything that's going to directly benefit me other than the magazine (not that I'm knocking it - just the facts!)

Andy D made a lovely point that I think goes precisely to the benefit of a national organisation that isn't a "club" The clubs do spend time and effort.. it is on an understanding of recipocracy, and they do lose a little when a non club member enters their comp. So ... the clubs can have comps for and amongst themselves at their leisure, and a national body could organise comps that were outside the club structure and did not require them to contribute except as they wished to, removing from them the burden of non-affiliated brewers.

Again, this is great in theory, but you still need to find the legs on the ground to help administer and run the comps. Someone has to spend the time and effort. If that is a group of AHB guys who all get together in a suburb somewhere in the country to run a competition then cool - in my mind there's not a lot to distinguish that group from a club.

And then you loose the advantage of getting your beers exposed to critique from a broader observer base if you want to exclude yourself from the competitions other clubs run... none of this works towards advancing the hobby.

However I'm yet to see an organised competition that has not been run with the support of one HB club or another - feel free to point me to one I'm not aware of though.

At the end of the day, all you're really talking about in the preceeding paragraph is creating another club, rather than trying to be an umbrella supporting, representing and benefitting the hobby as a whole.

NB - Can somebody please tell me why clubs are considered "evil"? I just don't get that...

This idea isn't about clubs vs something else.. why does it have to be a "this OR that" situation? No one is saying that clubs are bad or that they do their job poorly... just that they aren't for everyone, and that maybe they simply aren't the appropriate vehicle for the sort of thing that is being suggested. Hell, the first people to say that the clubs couldn't be organised into a cohesive national body, were people from within established clubs who have already tried to do it and failed... doesn't that tell us something?

I agree - that's why I'm still on here discussing it. I was "indie" until I discovered that the clubs were not just a bunch of socially inept drunkards who do nothing but organise regular piss-ups. It just worked for me - it probably doesn't for others. Each to their own.


At the end of the day, what I am really saying is let's figure out what people want out of an organisation at the national level. Once we know that we can go looking at the various models that have gone before us to determine what is going to fit the bill. I'm inclined to go down the local club path, not through a long held loyalty to one club (I've only been a member for a year), but through experiences with several organisations who have gone down similar paths over time...

Andy

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I get all I need via this awesome website. Be it supplies, advice, recipes, friends or functions. It is all here...

What is an official body realistically going to provide that home brewers don't get here already?

You mention Public Liability Insurance to cover all brew clubs... If we were to have our own dedicated, stand alone premises/club houses it would make sense. My club meets at BYO Pizza restaurants and holds a competition at a local show. As far as I'm aware we are covered by the umberella of others.

I know that the BJCP is frowned on by most members, but I can't see any other viable, stand alone system designed purely for a structured beer competition. Nothing wrong with adding a new style into the format to better cover beers brewed in our part of the world.

Conferenses for what? I mean if there is no commercial interest, where is the conference need? Or is it just an excuse for a get together with more taxational benifits than calling it a piss up? If so I'm up for it

Although most of the brewers I know are more craftsmen than competitors, I can see an advantage in a better structured competition system. My respects to those who do what they can in these existing events... which is great in my opinion. But if you could get all of the state comps to be held at the same time, and all of the beers above a set qualifying bench mark to progress to a rotational National Event/Competition/Conference/Case Swap/Shindig... you'd have something that nearly exists already.

You could realistically call this forum the national home brewing body... just elect members to represent and organise each states competition, along with the national competition and you have the start of it all.

So say tomorrow the neo-abolitionists win a victory and the government decides to consider a version of excise on homebrew - or decides that hopped malt extract should be taxed at 5 times the current rate? or that fresh wort kits were really booze not food and should be sold and taxed as such ... or .... or... or..

You don't think it would be useful to have a body who's purpose was to advocate the point of view of homebrewers?

Oh the screaming and moaning about the potential 300% increase in excise for craft beer or whatever it was, maybe the Australian Homebrewer's Association could help out the craftbrewers, maybe we could actually be a part of the same overarching body and watch each others backs a little.

Your a top notch brewer and you write a book tomorrow, its a great book, but at the end of the day, its about brewing a particular style of homebrew so no publisher is going to touch it because not enough people will by it - except the Brewers of Australia guild has a small publishing arm.

You'd love to run a Homebrewing class at the local community college - but while you are keen, you're not sure about the best way to structure a class. Amateur Brewers of Australia has a basic course plan and lesson outlines on its website... all you have to do is supply the knowledge to flesh it out. And of course you want to serve some examples of homebrew to the class - is that legal to do? what if you are charging for the class, doesn't that make it selling homebrew??? Fortunately there is a contact e-mail for you to send your question to - a person with experience in this sort of stuff will get back to you soon with some advice.

Oh - and maybe they help out with liability insurance if you want to organise a street festival or a family day in a local park as well

Just a thought

Thirsty

PS - Andy, thats what I would be looking for in a national body - the comps thing is utterly secondary, the clubs are already doing it well enough for me... if the national body adss more comps, well and good, if not, thats OK too.

 

[Andyd]

I get all I need via this awesome website. Be it supplies, advice, recipes, friends or functions. It is all here...

What is an official body realistically going to provide that home brewers don't get here already?

That's what I'm really interested in - what do you think is missing from what you have now in your club. Quite possibly nothing.

Your club sounds like a perfect example of what I think of as a brewers club. Not so much formal crap, and more experience/beer sharing. All the good stuff.

I know that the BJCP is frowned on by most members, but I can't see any other viable, stand alone system designed purely for a structured beer competition. Nothing wrong with adding a new style into the format to better cover beers brewed in our part of the world.

I don't know that that's what people here are saying. I've just sat the BJCP exam, and personally think they've done a lot of great work in setting up a foundation etc... I also can see what the BJCP knockers are saying and agree in part of what they're saying. BUt something about babies & bathwater comes to mind...

Conferenses for what? I mean if there is no commercial interest, where is the conference need? Or is it just an excuse for a get together with more taxational benifits than calling it a piss up? If so I'm up for it

With my ANHC hat on, what we would like to do is give local brewers access to experiences and people they otherwise wouldn't have access to. Conferences are a great forum to meet your peers - sure, you can get a heap of information on the web, but that's only a part of the picture. Actually meeting each other, tasting each other's beers, collectively experiencing thing like a sensory perception session. These are all things that the internet just isn't going to deliver (not for some time, anyway).

Although most of the brewers I know are more craftsmen than competitors, I can see an advantage in a better structured competition system. My respects to those who do what they can in these existing events... which is great in my opinion. But if you could get all of the state comps to be held at the same time, and all of the beers above a set qualifying bench mark to progress to a rotational National Event/Competition/Conference/Case Swap/Shindig... you'd have something that nearly exists already.

You could realistically call this forum the national home brewing body... just elect members to represent and organise each states competition, along with the national competition and you have the start of it all.

I think you may be saying this, but that's what we have. The states run qualifying comps for the AABC,and AABC moves around the country as people on the ground are able to get themselves together to organise the event.

So if the AABA runs the National Comp (AABC) in the manner you're describing (which it does), then the question is (again)...

What, if anything, do we want AABA to do for us beyond just organising the national competition. And then i they can't deliver, what should a National Organisation providing the requested services look like.

Andy

 

[Andyd]

PS - Andy, thats what I would be looking for in a national body - the comps thing is utterly secondary, the clubs are already doing it well enough for me... if the national body adss more comps, well and good, if not, thats OK too.

Good stuff TB - exactly the sort of stuff we need to get down. We can worry about how it gets organised later.

Andy

NB - the excise argument on craftbrew is a little bit outside a HB organisations purvue, and as I highlighted in a previous post there are organisations leading the charge on the commercial side of things. Not to suggest they couldn't use a hand...

NBB - the club are doing comps well enough for you, but are you doing enough to support them continuing to run them?

 

[bigfridge]

So if the AABA runs the National Comp (AABC) in the manner you're describing (which it does), then the question is (again)...

What, if anything, do we want AABA to do for us beyond just organising the national competition. And then i they can't deliver, what should a National Organisation providing the requested services look like.

Andy

Hi Andy,

Well since you asked - the AABA could start by actually fullfilling their current aims - which are:

B. Aims of the AABA (Australian Amateur Brewing Association)

B1. To organise the annual Australian Amateur Brewing Championship (AABC). This will usually involve appointment of a local organising committee in one of the States/Territories to hold and run the Championship.

B2. To help coordinate and, where possible, support the State/Territory Qualifying Championships so that all interested amateur brewers have the opportunity to qualify for the AABC.

B3. To standardise categories, style guidelines, and judging sheets at the AABC and the State/Territory Qualifying Championships to ensure consistency and fairness.

B4. To help organise educational workshops (such as courses, judge accreditation and exams) for beer judges to improve the overall standard of beer judging and to broaden the pool of judges available for amateur brewing competitions.

B5. To encourage friendship and the exchange of ideas between amateur brewers throughout Australia.

From my experience their main focus is with the style guidelines and who will hold the AABC each year. I have never seen any assistance with judge education and the 'exchange of ideas' has been left to a number of independent websites.

David

 

[Andyd]

Hi David,

I don't think you'll get much argument from anyone on these fronts. AABA (and to an extent some of the other state bodies) have defaulted to only really concentrating on running the competition.

Thanks for the input!

Andy

 

[Thirsty Boy]

NBB - the club are doing comps well enough for you, but are you doing enough to support them continuing to run them?

And there-in you have it. I'm not. Because I don't like being involved with clubs. My personal preference would be for clubs to run their own internal comps and perhaps interclub comps - of which I would not be a part. If they held "open" comps, then maybe I would. Then there would be a second tier of comps at state and national level, run by a national body that was not a club but an association responsible for many things AND for comps.

If that were the case - I most probably would support by stewarding and/or judging or even perhaps helping to organise, although I am particularly bad at that sort of thing.

In the meantime - I vaguely hope that the small amount extra I pay in entry fees, than I would as a club member helps to make up the difference in the comps I do enter. I would be/am perfectly happy to see that differential rise to reflect its actual cost to the clubs. I am glad of the lift, but I don't require a free ride.

And if the clubs were to choose not to offer this service to non-members, well thats just fair cop isn't it. I'd have to simply settle for the non-club affiliated comps that are around the place. They aren't as good, but they'd have to do.

But I repeat - Comps are secondary to the argument. Want to keep the current structure and arrangement for all competitions? Fine, lets do that. Now; about a National Body to represent, assist and advance homebrewing? Perhaps something similar to the AHA......

 

[Jazzafish]

So say tomorrow the neo-abolitionists win a victory and the government decides to consider a version of excise on homebrew - or decides that hopped malt extract should be taxed at 5 times the current rate? or that fresh wort kits were really booze not food and should be sold and taxed as such ... or .... or... or..

You don't think it would be useful to have a body who's purpose was to advocate the point of view of homebrewers?

Oh the screaming and moaning about the potential 300% increase in excise for craft beer or whatever it was, maybe the Australian Homebrewer's Association could help out the craftbrewers, maybe we could actually be a part of the same overarching body and watch each others backs a little.

Your a top notch brewer and you write a book tomorrow, its a great book, but at the end of the day, its about brewing a particular style of homebrew so no publisher is going to touch it because not enough people will by it - except the Brewers of Australia guild has a small publishing arm.

You'd love to run a Homebrewing class at the local community college - but while you are keen, you're not sure about the best way to structure a class. Amateur Brewers of Australia has a basic course plan and lesson outlines on its website... all you have to do is supply the knowledge to flesh it out. And of course you want to serve some examples of homebrew to the class - is that legal to do? what if you are charging for the class, doesn't that make it selling homebrew??? Fortunately there is a contact e-mail for you to send your question to - a person with experience in this sort of stuff will get back to you soon with some advice.

Oh - and maybe they help out with liability insurance if you want to organise a street festival or a family day in a local park as well

Just a thought

Thirsty

PS - Andy, thats what I would be looking for in a national body - the comps thing is utterly secondary, the clubs are already doing it well enough for me... if the national body adss more comps, well and good, if not, thats OK too.

That is pretty valid mate. Fair one. Good reason to seek a body that will stand up to it. But who can find the time to do it? If it was a paid job I could have a go, but work two jobs at the moment to stay on track.

QUOTE (Jazzafish @ May 5 2008, 02:37 PM)
I get all I need via this awesome website. Be it supplies, advice, recipes, friends or functions. It is all here...

What is an official body realistically going to provide that home brewers don't get here already?


That's what I'm really interested in - what do you think is missing from what you have now in your club. Quite possibly nothing.

Your club sounds like a perfect example of what I think of as a brewers club. Not so much formal crap, and more experience/beer sharing. All the good stuff.


QUOTE (Jazzafish @ May 5 2008, 02:37 PM)
I know that the BJCP is frowned on by most members, but I can't see any other viable, stand alone system designed purely for a structured beer competition. Nothing wrong with adding a new style into the format to better cover beers brewed in our part of the world.


I don't know that that's what people here are saying. I've just sat the BJCP exam, and personally think they've done a lot of great work in setting up a foundation etc... I also can see what the BJCP knockers are saying and agree in part of what they're saying. BUt something about babies & bathwater comes to mind...


QUOTE (Jazzafish @ May 5 2008, 02:37 PM)
Conferenses for what? I mean if there is no commercial interest, where is the conference need? Or is it just an excuse for a get together with more taxational benifits than calling it a piss up? If so I'm up for it


With my ANHC hat on, what we would like to do is give local brewers access to experiences and people they otherwise wouldn't have access to. Conferences are a great forum to meet your peers - sure, you can get a heap of information on the web, but that's only a part of the picture. Actually meeting each other, tasting each other's beers, collectively experiencing thing like a sensory perception session. These are all things that the internet just isn't going to deliver (not for some time, anyway).


QUOTE (Jazzafish @ May 5 2008, 02:37 PM)
Although most of the brewers I know are more craftsmen than competitors, I can see an advantage in a better structured competition system. My respects to those who do what they can in these existing events... which is great in my opinion. But if you could get all of the state comps to be held at the same time, and all of the beers above a set qualifying bench mark to progress to a rotational National Event/Competition/Conference/Case Swap/Shindig... you'd have something that nearly exists already.

You could realistically call this forum the national home brewing body... just elect members to represent and organise each states competition, along with the national competition and you have the start of it all.


I think you may be saying this, but that's what we have. The states run qualifying comps for the AABC,and AABC moves around the country as people on the ground are able to get themselves together to organise the event.

So if the AABA runs the National Comp (AABC) in the manner you're describing (which it does), then the question is (again)...

What, if anything, do we want AABA to do for us beyond just organising the national competition. And then i they can't deliver, what should a National Organisation providing the requested services look like.

Andy

Yeah mate I'm happy with my club. Just a bunch of guys who love the craft and try to do things beer related as often as possible. Some want it more formal, some more relaxed. Seems to balance out in the middle.

Rest of my post was mostly sarcasim, but a bit of truth in it too.