Australian Brewers Association

[Linz]

I know down here in Melbourne there has been a very strong aversion demonstrated toward all things american, in particular (and in large probably precipitated by) the BJCP.

AABA guidelines are a direct 'rip-off' of BJCP guidelines, with the same(both US and Aus) anal insertion of a country name in front of a style, rather than 'fit in'; and the BJCP guides must have something good about them to rip them off....More than willing to pull my head in if the AABA gudes were done first..but with proof of that, of course

Now other states may not have the same issue. The club scene down here has been established for a long time, and there are traditions being stepped on - that's where a lot of the issues arise.

HTFU...its called 'PROGRESS'?? (dont forget to read the smiley into it!!)

I'd encourage others in other states to start doing the same

.

Is there a State body in NSW..ala NewBrew??(NSWHBA)..Maybe we(NSW 'clubs') should have a get together with 2-3 nominated members of each group??..Start another thread if you(NSW only) think we should?? unless there already is one



Stirring the mash again

 

[Gerard_M]

Is there a State body in NSW..ala NewBrew??(NSWHBA)..Maybe we(NSW 'clubs') should have a get together with 2-3 nominated members of each group??..Start another thread if you(NSW only) think we should?? unless there already is one
Stirring the mash again

Sounds like a good move Linz, I wish I could give you a hand with that, but unfortunately I left the state!

Cheers
Gerard

 

[Linz]

Sounds like a good move Linz, I wish I could give you a hand with that, but unfortunately I left the state!

Cheers
Gerard

Maybe you can help with the 'Attitude' adjustment down there....heheheheh <_<

 

[Brewtus]

My biggest question is why? If the government gave us all the sh!7s then it would exist to be a lobby group like the AMA, the Unions, Retail traders association etc but they don't real effect home brewing much. If we wanted to send a team to the Olympics or other international competition than that could work but the AABA could do that. If home brewers needed to travel interstate a lot to brew to the exent they could fund hostel's, buses etc than OK but the name HOME brewer seems to contradict that.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against these sort of organisations but they need a clear purpose, a reason to exist, something to work towards, results to achieve and in this case I can't see what that is.

 

[dr K]

The AABA works well, and has worked well for a long time.
I am not saying that it is the be all and end all, in many ways, however, its strength is in its simplicity. The various states and Territories who hold the pre-qualifying competetions ahve two delegates each. These delegates discuss the rules, styles and such and decide on the running of the annual AABA comp, which normally moves from State to State according to the interset of the various clubs..2007 was NSW, 2006 Melbourne, 2005 Adelaide, 2004 and 2003 Canberra, 2002 Sydney, 2001 Melbourne and so on.
The AABA Nationals are one of the the largest 2nd round amateur beer comps in the world, not a bad effort from a group of faceless men!!
Back to simplicity though, the AABA has one major purpose and that is the running of the Nationals, that in itself is a major task and a task that the AABA itself does very well.

To me the most important reason for creating a National Homebrew body is for the improvement of the standards of home brewed beer, now all the forums and all the reading and all the googling in the world will not replace judging, assessment and feedback. How do we get this assessment and feedback, we do so by entering our beers in comps. If you enter your beer in a decent comp (one following the BJCP/AABA guidlines, not just for styles but for running of comps) you get feedback from three judges on all aspects of your beer and a score out of 50, you get the good and the bad, you get encouragement and advice and it all helps you to make a better beer. Increasingly these judges have passed the BJCP examination and thus have been assessed by a group of highly qualified and incredibly experienced judges and made the grade so you can be fairly confident that your feedback is pretty good....

Rather than rush in to some form (or worse still many forms) of National Group(s) I suggest a much more grass roots approach...if you have a club in your area..join it, if not then talk to like minded persons in your area and form one.
Get it right at the local club level, taste, talk and encourage.
You have nothing to gain but better beer


K

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Nothing to disagree with in what you say K, but it doesn't do much for people like me who don't want to join clubs, but might not mind contributing to a "wider" association formed for the purpose of advancing beer, brewing, homebrewing, competitions, conferences etc etc.

Clubs are good and I don't want to take away from the great things they do and the achievement of running both state and national comps.. but the fact that the comps are so much a "club thing" actively discourages me at least from participating in any way other than being a simple entrant.

And I'm not just some maverick loner either - there were quite a few "independent" brewers in the medals at last year's big comps. So there are a few of us out there who take our beer and brewing pretty seriously, but don't want to be in a club. As I said before, an AHA style organisation would be just the thing I would join though, and I expect there would be a fair few others as well.

Of course I am not the organizing sort, so whatever happens it isn't going to be me that does it. So I'm certainly not complaining about the current situation - I just thank my luck stars that the clubs do organize comps and that they are happy to let me enter. Doesn't mean I cant greedily wish for more though.

TB

 

[The King of Spain]

Nothing to disagree with in what you say K, but it doesn't do much for people like me who don't want to join clubs, but might not mind contributing to a "wider" association formed for the purpose of advancing beer, brewing, homebrewing, competitions, conferences etc etc.

Clubs are good and I don't want to take away from the great things they do and the achievement of running both state and national comps.. but the fact that the comps are so much a "club thing" actively discourages me at least from participating in any way other than being a simple entrant.

And I'm not just some maverick loner either - there were quite a few "independent" brewers in the medals at last year's big comps. So there are a few of us out there who take our beer and brewing pretty seriously, but don't want to be in a club. As I said before, an AHA style organisation would be just the thing I would join though, and I expect there would be a fair few others as well.

Of course I am not the organizing sort, so whatever happens it isn't going to be me that does it. So I'm certainly not complaining about the current situation - I just thank my luck stars that the clubs do organize comps and that they are happy to let me enter. Doesn't mean I cant greedily wish for more though.

TB

I'm with you on that Thirsty. I work probably 60+ hours a week so I find the web a good way to learn (in my time) and AHB posters have helped heaps . I am the president of a CBD Toastmasters club so I know the effort thats involved in running a club, and my club meets in business hours 5mins away.

My brews have gotten a lot better over time and I would now like professional feedback from comps, but as you say, I would prefer to be an "independent brewer" entering a comp.

Just to contradict myself I must say how helpfull these guys are. I had a "suspect" brew that even Ross was not sure of, he took it to a local club where there were some judges, and I got a spot on diagnosis.

If join a club I would want to contribute in a constructive way, and right now I can't. So I thats why I'm with Thirsty.

Having said that I can't wait till work slows down, I'd love to join a club

KOS

As post note, what's with the retailer "thing" on this thread? You go and try to make a buck out of this game and see what you find out. They are identified as retailers in posts so lets assume we all are big boys and know what the score is. The retailers on this furum invest a lot in us. I've had Ross (sorry mate) ring me up to on a brew day to help out with my hop schedule. Now far out, imagine if you got that service from the banks!!

 

[mikelinz]

Don't you think that if there weren't clubs no independants would hae comps to enter. For 5 years I brewed basis K&K because it was cheap. Now that I have joined a melbourne club my brewing knowledge and enjoyment has increased exponentially and my beers have actually become something people like to come and drink.

A national organisation that promotes brewers and brewing is a great idea

 

[BrissyBrew]

I know down here in Melbourne there has been a very strong aversion demonstrated toward all things american, in particular (and in large probably precipitated by) the BJCP. I have tried to talk a bit of this down, but it's a very strong emotional argument you'd be fighting.

Given that I would be keen to establish links with AHA, but not be governed by them. Many of their issues are not ours, and vice versa.

Andy

Andy, I am also keen to establish links but not necessary bbe goverened by the AHA. I think the AHA maintains an open mind. I dont think they are really interested in governing more bodies, and they might be busy enough managing their own affairs.

Competition wise the AHA already allows winners from Canadian national comps to go the the AHA nationals. Hence I think this can be done without being governed by the AHA. Having the possbility to go from the national comp to the AHA would be an added bonus for the winners of national comps here in Australia.

Magazine subscription, well it accounts for a few hundred existing members of the AHA in Australia. Obviously there is a print price and profit, but from a publishers point of view a greater circulation is also important. I think an Australian club could secure a good deal for associate memberships and subscription to the AHA.

 

[Andyd]

Andy, I am also keen to establish links but not necessary bbe goverened by the AHA. I think the AHA maintains an open mind. I dont think they are really interested in governing more bodies, and they might be busy enough managing their own affairs.

Competition wise the AHA already allows winners from Canadian national comps to go the the AHA nationals. Hence I think this can be done without being governed by the AHA. Having the possbility to go from the national comp to the AHA would be an added bonus for the winners of national comps here in Australia.

Magazine subscription, well it accounts for a few hundred existing members of the AHA in Australia. Obviously there is a print price and profit, but from a publishers point of view a greater circulation is also important. I think an Australian club could secure a good deal for associate memberships and subscription to the AHA.

An interesting question is would an Australian organisation (or club as you've referred to it) actually need to secure a deal for associate memberships?

As people have pointed out already, their (the AHA) issues are not our issues. They exist to fight the fight for their members over in the States, not over here. So it cold turn out that all that an affiliate membership is likely to get us is a possible discount on Zymurgy subs. It could be better/easier to look to BYO as an example, who will provide subscriptions to their magazine for $10 a year per club member, when clubs build the magazne subscription into their annual dues - not a bad deal (as long as you're a club member).

And on the issue of clubs in general (not aimed at you Frank - just a side discussion), Dr K is right on the money - the comps are (in general) run by the grass roots clubs, and that's not likely to change with the appearance of national level body (or club). In general the clubs run for the benefit of their members. No big suprise there. And the clubs are generally pretty sociable and philanthropic, in that they are happy to support members of other clubs in competitions because there is a kind of reciprocity there (assuming each club is running one or more competitions). However increasingly there is a disproportionate burden being placed on the resources of clubs by brewers not affiliated with a club. Reciprocity (by and large) breaks down here, so the clubs are increasingly asking themselves "what do we get by allowing independent brewers to enter our comps". A fair question I would argue, and I wager this could be the start of a new trend in competitions...

Another interesting point is that AHA exists as a sub-entity of the Brewers Association (of America). The BA supports the commercial side of things, while the AHA looks after the hobby side of things. One of the big fights going on in the states at the moment is the legalisation of homebrewing in Utah, and the AHA is helping in that objective.

In contrast, our excise issue for micros (if it arose in the US) would be handled by the Brewers Association. And there is a local analogue in the Microbrewers Associaton (and particularly the victorian associate VAMI) who are taking up the excise charge (check out http://www.microbrewing.com.au/default.asp...p;pagetype=news).

So I come back to, what do we really want out of local, state and national level bodies? (and I'll admit that since I still haven't got a list of demands I'm not yet being particularly useful on this front )

I would argue that the "tiers" are necessary to support continued local competition and, more impotantly, to facilitate the frequent co-mingling of like minded brewers. This last bit is probably the most important part of being in a club, since it allows you to share, compare and discuss your latest brews in a critical but friendly audience. I just can't put a finger on the value I've got from being involved with a club for the relatively short time I've been brewing.

Andy

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

In another life, I was part of an organisation that was a state body. It represented the interests of state-based members to state government authorities and other parties that we rubbed shoulders with. That association was a corporate member of the national group - which pretty much only had state-based member organisations. The national body was funded largely by the state bodies and provided all the national activities we could want. I kinda like it as a system as it provides the tiering being spoken of here and a model of administering and funding it.

I identify with the King of Spain and Thirsty Boy in this regard. I don't currently want to be a clubby kind of guy, but when I pull my finger out and enter my beers in comps and things, I would like to be able to leverage that opportunity. I don't want a free ride on the matter, but neither do I wish to be excluded because I am a lonely loner kind of guy...

If there was to be an association with bodies in the US, the same tiering model could be employed with a World Brewing Federation or wotnot. But, that's probably also a bit premature in the context of this discussion...

 

[brettprevans]

ok im going to comment on the structure of national orgs with state branches etc from the corporate governance point of view. They rarely work. Labour unions have them as its a labor style of organisation. most organisations that have these branch style governance arranegments dont work and while hey are working its a nightmare to adminstrate cause theres too much buggerising around with represnting every possible mana and his dog. They are horrible. Take for instance medical practioner boards. There were many boards and each state had a differant board and no real national body. A LOT of work and research has gone into it and they decided that it would be best to go to a national body with no branchs. much easy and better to administer in my opinion as a governance professional.

as far as being an aussie branch of an american brewing assoc....why the hell would we do that. we are australian brewers not american brewers. let our national body have a relationship with another country's association. or should we organise a world wide brewing body with country representitives....see where im going with that can of worms. h34r:

Im not a club kind of guy either. although joining a club would be great for knowledge sharing etc (if your club has decent brewers other wise your just sharing bad habits!). But a national body would be ok an idea if its purpose was right. but im not sure there is a need or a want to set up said body. afterall each state doesnt currently have its own peak body does it? (genuine question). Just like brewtus said.

 

[peas_and_corn]

as far as being an aussie branch of an american brewing assoc....why the hell would we do that. we are australian brewers not american brewers. let our national body have a relationship with another country's association. or should we organise a world wide brewing body with country representitives....see where im going with that can of worms. h34r:

WBO (World Brewing Organization)- Iran Division

 

[Andyd]

ok im going to comment on the structure of national orgs with state branches etc from the corporate governance point of view. They rarely work. Labour unions have them as its a labor style of organisation. most organisations that have these branch style governance arranegments dont work and while hey are working its a nightmare to adminstrate cause theres too much buggerising around with represnting every possible mana and his dog. They are horrible. Take for instance medical practioner boards. There were many boards and each state had a differant board and no real national body. A LOT of work and research has gone into it and they decided that it would be best to go to a national body with no branchs. much easy and better to administer in my opinion as a governance professional.

That works for a professonal body, where you're paying people to go out and do the local level administration. I can't seriously see paid positions being a reality for any aussie HB organisation in the near future, so you would have to find local groups of people who were willing to do all of the ground work to set up and administer cometitions and local meetings... sounds strangely like a club to me

as far as being an aussie branch of an american brewing assoc....why the hell would we do that. we are australian brewers not american brewers. let our national body have a relationship with another country's association. or should we organise a world wide brewing body with country representitives....see where im going with that can of worms. h34r:

Couldn't agree more. The AHA linkage would be great from an educational perspective, but I don't see a need for any form of strong tie (with the possible exception of getting a heavy discount on Zymurgy).

Im not a club kind of guy either. although joining a club would be great for knowledge sharing etc (if your club has decent brewers other wise your just sharing bad habits!). But a national body would be ok an idea if its purpose was right. but im not sure there is a need or a want to set up said body. afterall each state doesnt currently have its own peak body does it? (genuine question). Just like brewtus said.

That's where you need to be able to pick your clubs. I'm a member out at Melbourne Brewers, and I found it was agreat fit for me, despite my reluctance at first. It will depend a lot of factors from club to club, but I don't know any clubs that are stuffy, exclusive groups that are closed to outsiders. Pretty much everyone I know in the club community in Melbourne are easy to get along with an open invitation to new members to come along.

We're not talking about Rotary or Toastmasters here. Many of the meeting are just quiet get-togethers where a few beers are shared over tales of the latest brewing disaster As one person put it to me (and I paraphrase) "it was great to be able to talk about beer stuff without sounding like a nerd". And that's what it's about. Getting together with people just like you to talk and drink beer.

Andy

 

[brettprevans]

That works for a professonal body, where you're paying people to go out and do the local level administration. I can't seriously see paid positions being a reality for any aussie HB organisation in the near future, so you would have to find local groups of people who were willing to do all of the ground work to set up and administer cometitions and local meetings... sounds strangely like a club to me
Andy

yeah I know some professional bodies do that. Mine (Aust Institute of Company Directors) does have state branches but its mainly for coordinating training and membership services. There is only 1 board and its not a state representational board, any member of any state could be elected/appointed. so theoretically you could all Victorians on it (the way it should be h34r: !!).

all good points you raise Andy. yeah ive heard only good things about all state's brew clubs and eventualy I might make it to a meeting or 2.
just thought id add my 2 beers worth.

 

[Andyd]

yeah I know some professional bodies do that. Mine (Aust Institute of Company Directors) does have state branches but its mainly for coordinating training and membership services. There is only 1 board and its not a state representational board, any member of any state could be elected/appointed. so theoretically you could all Victorians on it (the way it should be h34r: !!).

all good points you raise Andy. yeah ive heard only good things about all state's brew clubs and eventualy I might make it to a meeting or 2.
just thought id add my 2 beers worth.

I'd be happy to catch up prior to a meeting and introduce you - feel free to PM me.

Andy

 

[Thirsty Boy]

as far as being an aussie branch of an american brewing assoc....why the hell would we do that. we are australian brewers not american brewers. let our national body have a relationship with another country's association. or should we organise a world wide brewing body with country representitives....see where im going with that can of worms. h34r:

If people read my original suggestion carefully - you will note that I was suggesting that we become a parter/sister/etc organisation with the America Homebrewers Association via becoming an affiliate of the Brewers Association, which is not solely an American but an international organisation.

At any rate, I say why wouldn't we - brewing is brewing. I don't feel like an Australian brewer, I just feel like a brewer. Beer was probably invented in the middle east - so unless you are Sumerian or Egyptian, getting parochial about being an [insert country name here] brewer is just silly. Look at the forum we are discussing this issue in - I have not met, nor am I likely to meet 95% of the brewers that I talk to via this medium, and yet we have a lot of things in common. Whether they are around the corner, or on the other side of the world makes absolutely no difference to me at all.

Given that I feel that "eeew, its American....." is insufficient reason - Whats so wrong about wanting to capitalize on the work and organization that other people have already done? I am a member of the AHA already and if they organised and event or a comp in Australia, I would happily enter it. As would I take their assistance in helping to promote the cause of beer and brewing in this country.

Andy D made a lovely point that I think goes precisely to the benefit of a national organisation that isn't a "club" The clubs do spend time and effort.. it is on an understanding of recipocracy, and they do lose a little when a non club member enters their comp. So ... the clubs can have comps for and amongst themselves at their leisure, and a national body could organise comps that were outside the club structure and did not require them to contribute except as they wished to, removing from them the burden of non-affiliated brewers.

This idea isn't about clubs vs something else.. why does it have to be a "this OR that" situation? No one is saying that clubs are bad or that they do their job poorly... just that they aren't for everyone, and that maybe they simply aren't the appropriate vehicle for the sort of thing that is being suggested. Hell, the first people to say that the clubs couldn't be organised into a cohesive national body, were people from within established clubs who have already tried to do it and failed... doesn't that tell us something?

 

[Jazzafish]

Having a single association would allow simply things like public liablity for all the brew clubs across the country, national standard for judging, conferences, competions, a body free from commerical interests and more representative of all brewers.

I get all I need via this awesome website. Be it supplies, advice, recipes, friends or functions. It is all here...

What is an official body realistically going to provide that home brewers don't get here already?

You mention Public Liability Insurance to cover all brew clubs... If we were to have our own dedicated, stand alone premises/club houses it would make sense. My club meets at BYO Pizza restaurants and holds a competition at a local show. As far as I'm aware we are covered by the umberella of others.

I know that the BJCP is frowned on by most members, but I can't see any other viable, stand alone system designed purely for a structured beer competition. Nothing wrong with adding a new style into the format to better cover beers brewed in our part of the world.

Conferenses for what? I mean if there is no commercial interest, where is the conference need? Or is it just an excuse for a get together with more taxational benifits than calling it a piss up? If so I'm up for it

Although most of the brewers I know are more craftsmen than competitors, I can see an advantage in a better structured competition system. My respects to those who do what they can in these existing events... which is great in my opinion. But if you could get all of the state comps to be held at the same time, and all of the beers above a set qualifying bench mark to progress to a rotational National Event/Competition/Conference/Case Swap/Shindig... you'd have something that nearly exists already.

You could realistically call this forum the national home brewing body... just elect members to represent and organise each states competition, along with the national competition and you have the start of it all.

 

[brettprevans]

If people read my original suggestion carefully - you will note that I was suggesting that we become a parter/sister/etc organisation with the America Homebrewers Association via becoming an affiliate of the Brewers Association, which is not solely an American but an international organisation.

Your right TB. I read a differant post that gave me a differant impression. I too suggested the sister/affiliation thing.

Given that I feel that "eeew, its American....." is insufficient reason - Whats so wrong about wanting to capitalize on the work and organization that other people have already done? I am a member of the AHA already and if they organised and event or a comp in Australia, I would happily enter it. As would I take their assistance in helping to promote the cause of beer and brewing in this country.

I wasnt anti USA (not saying that u said I was), I just figure that if such an organisation was being put together it may as well sit under its own umbrella. sort of like aussie wine makers being proud to be aussie and not french. but yes your right about what your saying about using them for assistance, promoting brewing etc. nothing wrong with that.

 

[Tseay]

Perhaps a first step would be to establish a Souhern Hemisphere sub-group of the BJCP involving South Africa, New Zealand and Ourselves. Currently we are represented out of New York, which creates all sorts of issues with exam organisiation in particular. If that group could get off the ground it might form a base for something bigger. I just don't thnk that the craft is big enough and mature enough at the moment to form a genuine national body.