Australian Amateur Brewing Championship

[dr K]

Darren
I suggest that you are not at all familiar with Lear.
None the less there will always be people who object to, or suggest to or otherwise wish to make contributions, whether warranted, wise, helpfull, asked for, askewed or simply lame.
I am, perhaps, the fool, but to a simple man such as I, the rules or regulations or call them what you will of amateur competitions such the Nationals should be decided by concensus of those who seek to enter and judge.

K

 

[Darren]

FFS, what a bunch of really sore losers we are... If someone wants to enter 23 beers in 12 categories (or more) fine with me. if they are substandard, they will be judged. If they take 3 placings, they HAD 3 good beers entered that placed.
It's a learning experience for most, c'mon fellas, at least be constructive, even if it is just in your posting.

Maple,

Not a loser, just a judge at SABSOSA

Just trying to raise the standard of flights I have judged. To be quite honest, there is some crap entered. If by chance alone that a brewer entered both a good beer and their worst beer in a comp then the chances are that the worst beer will preceed in judging a beer of many merits that are not recognised by the negative flavours placed on a judges palate by the previous beer

Although Mr. BigFridge is opposed to change, brewers who "carpet bomb" brew comps should be penalised by a BAD beer they enter (ie if their score was an aggregate of the beers entered it would be a good assessment of their own ability to know what to enter and what not too)

Darren
I suggest that you are not at all familiar with Lear.
None the less there will always be people who object to, or suggest to or otherwise wish to make contributions, whether warranted, wise, helpfull, asked for, askewed or simply lame.
I am, perhaps, the fool, but to a simple man such as I, the rules or regulations or call them what you will of amateur competitions such the Nationals should be decided by concensus of those who seek to enter and judge.

K

Yes Dr.K,

I have contributed in all of your requirements to opinion, therefore I feel an obligation to comment on the topic on hand.

cheers

Dr. D

 

[smudge]

When you enter a competition, you need to honestly answer only one question to yourself; "Why am I entering?"

If you are entering to get feedback on your beer, brewing process, sanitation, ability to brew "to style" then that's great. You will
get a scoresheet back that hopefully answers some of those questions.

If on the otherhand, you are entering to win a medal, best of show, brewer of the year etc, etc, you will enter as many beers
as you have on hand and hope that the sheer number of entries will give you a leg up. There is a lot of luck involved.

For various reasons I have never entered a comp. If I do, I hope that my motivation is for education rather than the gong.

But, bugger........I'll say it......wouldn't it be nice to have a medal that says you're the best brewer in the country??

Cheers,
smudge

PS

If Darren's question cannot be answered let's say it, seems a reasonable question to me.

 

[dr K]

Darren,
Clearly my suggestion was, in truth, factual.
I did not BTW opine.

K

 

[Darren]

Darren,

I did not BTW opine.

K

K,

WTF not?

D

 

[dr K]

If on the otherhand, you are entering to win a medal, best of show, brewer of the year etc, etc, you will enter as many beers
as you have on hand and hope that the sheer number of entries will give you a leg up. There is a lot of luck involved.

Depends on your asessment of the quality of the judges.
Depends whether the judges cause they say they are or if they have been peer asessed, at more than one level.
No doubt about it, and any decent brewer knows this so it is rather boring to have to repeat, in a flight of say 8 beers there will be one, or two or even three that stand out, the difference will only be a few points, all are good beeers and on another day, even with same judges, it will vary, but the best are always at the top..so YES it is luck, but in this case case you have to be good before you are lucky.

K

 

[bigfridge]

Although Mr. BigFridge is opposed to change, brewers who "carpet bomb" brew comps should be penalised by a BAD beer they enter (ie if their score was an aggregate of the beers entered it would be a good assessment of their own ability to know what to enter and what not too)

Dear Darren,

I won't comment on your judging ability as apparently it has not been subjected to independent assessment (eg BJCP exam), hence my comments would only be opinion and not fact. But I do feel compelled to comment on your other abilities. You seem to be able to predict with some certainty the beer stocks of EVERY national competitor and their motivation for entering competitions. Now you are able to add the ability to attribute to me words that I have not said and thoughts that I have not had.

Those that know me will attest that I have, in the past, many suggestions for improving the local brewing competitions. Many of these can be found in the current AABC guidelines. These are only loosely based on my 20 year experience of entering/running/assisting/judging of local competitions and attendance at similar competitions in the USA.

It is a fabrication of your own imagination to say that I am 'opposed to change' based on what I have written here.

We now return you to your normal program.

 

[Darren]

Dear Darren,

Many of these can be found in the current AABC guidelines. These are only loosely based on my 20 year experience of entering/running/assisting/judging of local competitions and attendance at similar competitions in the USA.

It is a fabrication of your own imagination to say that I am 'opposed to change' based on what I have written here.

Deleted most of your post but I will comment like this. I know of people who have passed BJCP exams who could not taste a beer from their ******* so I will leave your comment at that (for those not in the know BJCP only has a small component on tasting whereas majority is based on theory).

Please tell me Mr. Big why "carpet bombing" of a comp is allowed? Is it because of the proceeds generated to organisers of a comp $$$$$$$ or is it because those who do so cannot tell which of thier multitude of beers are actually good?

Penalise any carpet bomber for bad beers I say (unless it is standard practice to award bad beers in the US too). Perhaps it is just a faction of my imagination?

cheers

Darren

 

[smudge]

No doubt about it, and any decent brewer knows this so it is rather boring to have to repeat, in a flight of say 8 beers there will be one, or two or even three that stand out, the difference will only be a few points, all are good beeers and on another day, even with same judges, it will vary, but the best are always at the top..so YES it is luck, but in this case case you have to be good before you are lucky.

K

K,

I think Shakespeare would be turning in his grave if he ever had the chance to read this. I've got Don Watson's mobile no and
I'll pm it to you if you are interested and I can find it.

I'll never slag a judge, whatever their experience. They are putting their hand up (for a variety of reasons) and if they are
the ones who judge my beer, (if ever I enter a comp) I have no problem with whatever they score, describe or comment on.

I do have a problem though with Darren's question. It may be a stupid question. His reasoning may be way off. He might have
been kidnapped by the sceptic fairies......but it deserves an answer.

I also have some sympathy for Darren's opinion on 'carpet bombing'. I'm trying to find a negative in his maths about taking
the good (bad?) beers scored against the number of beers entered. Is there a problem with this approach I'm not seeing?

Cheers,
smudge

 

[dr K]

I know of people who have passed BJCP exams who could not taste a beer from their ******* so I will leave your comment at that (for those not in the know BJCP only has a small component on tasting whereas majority is based on theory).

Go Darren
you are surely in a mood to name and shame..so prove your mettle and do so, of course if you are at at loss to so I would not object if you named and shamed me..
i will not shame you for your lack of knowledge about the BJCP, you have done a far better job than I ever could have.

K

 

[drsmurto]

I'll put my hand up and say i agree with Darren.

The most logical scoring system would be one based on the average of every beer you enter in a given competition.

 

[bum]

So a brewer should only brew in a style which they have a proven record? They can't branch out into other styles for feedback? Perhaps brewers who only enter one beer that isn't very good should have points deducted from future entries? Good beers should be penalised for coming from the same shed as a not so good beer?

Makes no sense.

 

[smudge]

I'll put my hand up and say i agree with Darren.

The most logical scoring system would be one based on the average of every beer you enter in a given competition.

I agree (again),

For "best brewer", "Ninkasi", "brewer of the century", "best of Gulgong Show", I agree.

For a single style I think there is no problem with awarding the gong to the beer the judges (whoever they are!)
deem to be the best beer brewed according to the rules of the competition.

Cheers,
smudge

 

[smudge]

So a brewer should only brew in a style which they have a proven record? They can't branch out into other styles for feedback? Perhaps brewers who only enter one beer that isn't very good should have points deducted from future entries? Good beers should be penalised for coming from the same shed as a not so good beer?

Makes no sense.

No bum, you're not listening.

THE question remains. "Why are you entering the competition?"

If your motivation is to get feedback from whatever judging panel happens to judge your comp so that you can improve your
beers, it doesn't matter how many good or bad beers you enter. You'll soon know how the judging panel feels. Branch out to
you heart's content.

If your motivation is to win a medal, best of show, brewer of the century etc, etc, then yeah! Don't "branch out into other
styles" if you can't brew a reasonable beer that comes close to the comp's guidelines.

Cheers,
smudge

 

[bum]

No bum, you're not listening.

Pardon? You seem to be confusing "listening" with "accepting what I say as Gospel".

People's motivations for entering a comp have nothing to do with how the awards should be decided.

 

[Stuster]

I'm writing to the IOC to suggest they adjust their programs to account for countries 'carpet bombing' the Olympics. The overall winning country will be based on the 'Darren method' by the average number of medals per competitors sent. This means that Togo topped the Beijing Olympics after one of their two athletes won a bronze, followed by Ethiopia, Zimbabwe and Kenya. (Australia came a lowly 33rd. <_< ) From here.

 

[Tony]

DrS.

Darren seems to has a problem with the carpet bombing of comps.

The rules from the NSW state comp state:

The only exemption to this is the most sucessfull exibitor for the competition award where all scores will be taken into consideration and enteries must have a minimum of three (3) enteries overall to qualify.

This sounds to me like it meand all enteries are averaged if you have 3 or more enteries and puts you into contention for the award. The more enteries.... the more chance you have of winning.. .even if you have a few really bad beers. Averages work like that.

I personally have always looked apon the MSB award as a bit of a joke and the first in class or brew of show as the big ticket items! Mainly because of this reason in the rules.

Yes i just agreed with Darren :unsure: but im not going to lie or say nothing to stir **** on here........... im sick of all that.

If i have misinturpreted the rule of all the brewers beers scores being averaged..... please corect me..... its just how i percieve the rule.

Its the rule and i accept it as it is......... i never chased it as an award when entering comps for reasons stated above, but its a rule and we live with it.

Bagging out the basis of brewing competioions and there rules (even if we dont like them) sorry Darren.. but especially from yourself as a judge as you have stated with a smile, is not going to fix anything.

I have read over all this a couple times now and i dont think the beef is carpet bombing........ it seemed to be a gripe with aledged state favoritism at state and national comps. Blambing carpet bombing from a few brewers for any gripes you may have with who won..... and as a judge Darren... you should follow the code as other judges do, of all beers will be judged equally and fairly, even if you know the brewer and the beer...... and i dont doubt any judges ability to pick a certain beer from a flight of 10! If we are led to believe judges are using favoritism when judging..... this will onlu destroy the fabric of belief that home brewers hold when entering beers to any comp... large or small.

As a Judge yourself Darren...... isnt this self destructive to work you have put into becoming a judge in the first place..... and im sure that was a lot of work! ???

Cheers

Tony

 

[smudge]

So a brewer should only brew in a style which they have a proven record? They can't branch out into other styles for feedback? Perhaps brewers who only enter one beer that isn't very good should have points deducted from future entries? Good beers should be penalised for coming from the same shed as a not so good beer?

Makes no sense.

bum, sorry I had to quote you again.

Just one question. A hypothetical competition I enter with the aim of winning best brewer of the year. I enter 25 beers. 21 of them are
infected, oxidised, phenolic, cloudy.....you name it, these beers had it.

BUT, I had 4 beers that scored first place and that was enough to give me the honour of "brewer of the century".

Did I deserve the gong of "brewer of the century?" when another brewer only entered three beers and won best of class each time?

Cheers,
smudge

PS
Stuster, sorry but you've just added weight to my argument. That's a letter that should be written.

PPS
Like Tony says, "the more entries, the more chance you have of winning"......Brewer of the Century that is!!

 

[Stuster]

Ok, well to describe a not so theoretical example. Say if you had one brewer who entered ten beers and placed with 5 of them. Another brewer entered one beer and placed with that. Congratulations, the best brewer is our brewer of one beer. :icon_cheers:

I guess I think it's important that people enter beers they are not sure about and would like feedback on. If people only enter beers they are sure are going to do well, everybody learns less. Which to me is more of an issue than who wins the champion brewer.

 

[dr K]

these arguments have gone on for years, and will continue to
the answer is so simple it hardly bears mentioning, so I guess it's analogy time.
Let us then take another competion, pick rugby, or tennis, whatever. rugby players or tennis players paly by the rules or the laws or whatever, they enter the comp as a team or an individual, and always have, knowing those laws or rules or regulations. Those laws, rules, regulations change from time time to time usually by the governing body that governs that sport which suprise usually has a fair mix of retired highly experienced exponents.
The sidelines though are full of characters who "know" the ref got it wrong, the next day work breaks are full of sugsestions and complaints.
If we want to take (and many of us have) amateur brewing to a new and then higher level, then we would be wise to follow the examples of other amateur comps that have shown us the way.
Stay on the sideline, shout all the abuse you can muster, but if you truly want to change things then do something about it, yes, sorry, it does mean getting involved and, hey, communicating on a face to face basis....

K