Asian-style All-grain Suggestions

[bigholty]

Hi,
I have had a search through here for info about making asian-style lagers. I got a bit of info but there's not a real lot on offer, especially for an all-grain brew. The general consensus is "why bother, rice beers aren't that great anyway". I quite like them as a thirst-quencher, and I'm at a point in my learning-curve where I want to try mashing some non-malted adjuncts (my current setup allows me to do 23L AG batches). I've put down my ideas for a recipe below and I'd welcome any comments. In particular, will the ratio of malt to rice be okay (what is the most rice you could have and still get conversion), what hops are commonly used in this style, and any suugestions for a suitable yeast?

75% pilsener malt
20% plain rice, crushed a bit and cooked
5% light crystal
20 min protein rest at 50C
60 min sacch rest at 65C
Bitter to 20-25 IBU with Nothern Brewer
1.0g/l Saaz at 5-10min from flameout
Target OG around 1.045-50
Ferment at 12C with clean, good attenuating lager yeast, etc...as for normal lager

Cheers.

 

[tangent]

Mitsubishi Zero

Fermentables
Ingredient Amount % When
Australian Barrett Burston Galaxy 3.40 kg 51.5 % In Mash/Steeped
German Pilsner Malt 3.00 kg 45.5 % In Mash/Steeped
US Flaked Rice 0.20 kg 3.0 % In Mash/Steeped

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount Form When
NZ BSaaz 6.7 20 g Pelletized Hops 60 Min From End
NZ BSaaz 6.7 10 g Pelletized Hops 1 Min From End
NZ BSaaz 6.7 10 g Pelletized Hops At turn off

Yeast
DCL S-189-SafLager German Lager


I'm after a subtle rice effect. Note there's no crystal. Most of these beers are dry on the finish.

 

[Guest Lurker]

Like Tangent I would drop the crystal but you could swap it for 5% vienna which would do the job nicely. 20% flaked rice will convert easily, never tried cooked rice.

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

I have used rice flour from an Indian grocery store, puffed rice from a health food shop free from additves and also the flat rice flakes, all at around 10% of the grist.
I don't brew many lagers but these ones were very quaffable.

You may like to search this site for Ashers famous GT Rice Lager.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Why would rice be bad??

Its just going to be like any of the flavour neutral adjuncts. Budweiser use lots of rice in their beer and I seriously doubt if anyone could accuse that stuff of haveing any bad flavours, no flavours at all really.

No reason not to use it, but you might as well just use dextrose or sucrose, at around 20% you're basically not going ot be able to tell the difference

Or thats what I reckon anyway.

Thirsty

 

[berapnopod]

Why would rice be bad??

Its just going to be like any of the flavour neutral adjuncts. Budweiser use lots of rice in their beer and I seriously doubt if anyone could accuse that stuff of haveing any bad flavours, no flavours at all really.

No reason not to use it, but you might as well just use dextrose or sucrose, at around 20% you're basically not going ot be able to tell the difference

Or thats what I reckon anyway.

Thirsty

Yep, I believe the US budweiser uses something like 40% rice in their grain bill. Certainly more than 20%.

The thing about rice is that its gelatinisation temp is quite high - something like 80C from vague memory. So you need to effectively boil the rice for a little bit to burst the grains open.

Someone said flaked rice, this should work as well (without the boiling) as the flaking process effectively bursts the grains too.

Rice is close to flavour neutral, so its effectively adding just alcohol. I find it much more flavour neutral than sugar.

I know there are recipes out there for making a beer with rice. Just can't find them at the moment, but Jeff Renner on the HBD has done this sort of stuff, and is a well known expert on adjunct beers.


Berp.

 

[afromaiko]

Check out the Clone Brews book, there are a few recipes in there for Kirin, Asahi and Tsing Tao.

 

[MHB]

I believe a lot of the Asian beers we see have really high adjunct levels, some well over the 40% mark.

If you want that use that much I would strongly recommend using an enzyme additive Promalt 163 is particularly good for high rice beers, tho Amylo 300 is more available and would certainly help.

If I were starting out to try and make this style of beer, I would keep the grain bill as simple as possible, say 60% pilsner malt and 40% cooked rice, with the enzyme above. Mash at the optimum for the enzyme you choose then jump up to mid to high 70's.

Keep the bitterness low 16-20 IBU and not use any taste or aroma additions.

Some people have reported good outcomes with SW 34/70, at the higher end of the temperature range, followed by very cold (-1C) lagering for 7-10 days.

Most Asian beers I have tasted - well all I get is dextrins and DMS, not my favourite style, but an interesting take on beer.

MHB

 

[bigholty]

Thanks for all the comments people, I might look at getting some flaked rice instead and maybe some enzyme. The focus seems to be the dryness, and neutral flavours, avoiding malt and hop flavours. Seems like I'm going to be trying to make soda water!! I'll post on the eventual results, cheers.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Would puffed rice do the trick... ie: Rice bubbles?

Pre-gelatinised for sure.

TB

 

[Ross]

I've used rice & corn (both flaked) many times & up to 30% they convert in a normal mash without any worries at all. In fact Screwtop uses plain corn & gets it to convert in a normal mash without boiling.
The corn gives a more rounded finish to the beer & subdues the hops, whereas the rice gives a really crisp finish that accentuates the hops in both aroma & taste. I love using approx 10% rice in a lager & rarely make one without these days.

cheers Ross

 

[Steve Lacey]

For a start I don't think it is really fair to lump all Asian beer into Asian lagers, though I guess that is the image that dominates. Secondly, even among Asian lagers there is more diversity than the discussion seems to imagine. Some do accentuate malt, others definitely accentuate hops, though as with any mega lager, none of them are particularly high in IBUs.

The focus seems to be the dryness, and neutral flavours, avoiding malt and hop flavours.

Sorry, but I don't agree with MHB's recommendation to go for 40% adjunct. I'm not saying that such beers don't exist, but I don't believe it is typical (we are talking about beer, not happoshu). The 20% you were shooting for in the first place is more appropriate, at least as a first try. And rather than enzyme, go for a lower mash temp of about 63 to 64, no higher. That's as your first attempt, then if it isn't dry enough or has too much malt, maybe up the rice and bring in the enzyme. But I wouldn't go for an all-out assault in the first instance.

Yes, you have to do a cereal mash if you use normal rice. Rice gelatization temp is above that of the typical mash. So rice flakes might be a good idea if you can get them (pre-gelatinized).

I think the no crystal but 5-10% Vienna suggestion was a good one. Hops is probably tricker, and nailing this beer to your taste will probably depend a lot on tweaking the bitterness and flavour to be in good balance with the light body. Some of the big Japanese brewers have their own hop varieties. But I think that N. Brewer & Saaz are definitely a good starting choice, though other noble hops like Tettnanger would not be out of place.

 

[berapnopod]

(we are talking about beer, not happoshu)

Steve, I have always been curious to know, what are the specifications for when a beer is not a beer, but happoshu. Any ideas?

Berp.

 

[Steve Lacey]

Trying to get a more definitive answer for you berapnopod, but until I do, here is my initial response (I'll edit later if necessary):

Actually, that is a slightly complicated question because there is what we commonly think of as happoshu (about 40% malt or less) and what can be technically regarded as happoshu under the brewing licensing/taxation laws. I think, and I'll go check up on this, that technically, the use of any percentage of non-malt adjunct can allow you to label a beer happoshu. This is handy for micro-breweries who can then avoid some of the onerous brewing licensing requirements for beer (especially the high minimum production volumes that apply for a beer brewing license). But there is also the fact that once beer becomes happoshu it cannot be labeled as beer. But anyway, practically speaking, the stuff on the shelves that is called happoshu is about 40% malt, give or take 10%. This puts it in a lower taxation bracket (tax for beer and happoshu is on malt, not alcohol), so you can easily pick the beer from the happoshu on the shelves. And then there is the non-malt "beer" which is another notch below that, but don't get me started on that crap.

 

[Steve Lacey]

OK, here is the more definitive answer to the happoshu question, thanks to Bryan Harrell, Japan's best beer writer for helping me out:

The happoshu definition is complicated, but basically what isn't beer is happoshu.

Beer is defined as having at least 67% of its grain bill being malt; the remainder must be some kind of grain, starch or sugar. Beer can contain only these, plus hops and yeast.

So, even if a beer is 100% malt, if you put in a drop of fruit essence, or other non-beer ingredient, it becomes happoshu.

The 50% malt and 25% malt designations for happoshu are merely tax brackets. Tax is determined by malt content, and even happoshu with over 67% malt is taxed at the same rate as beer.

Hope that helps.

Steve

 

[berapnopod]

Thanks Steve and Bryan!

Berp

 

[Kai]

Rice is close to flavour neutral, so its effectively adding just alcohol. I find it much more flavour neutral than sugar

I beg to differ on that one, my experiences with flaked rice have given me a definite impression of a very pleasant rice flavour in my beers, especially during ferment. Can't comment on commercial beers with high rice adjunct levels though, so I'm leaving psychosomatism open as an option.