Oktoberfest Style Lager Formulation

[BKBrews]

I know I've asked for feedback on quite a few recipes lately, but I've given myself the massive responsibility of providing the beer for our family Christmas this year (15+ people with >50% drinking beer), so I want to provide a few options (lager, ales etc).

This is what I've come up with so far:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Big Knobs Brewey House Lager
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Oktoberfest/Märzen
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 28.00 l
Post Boil Volume: 26.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 21.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 18.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 24.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 79.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2.41 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 1 45.0 %
2.41 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 2 45.0 %
0.54 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) (70.9 EBC) Grain 3 10.0 %
40.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 15.7 IBUs
1.22 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
50.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 9.2 IBUs
3.0 pkg Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70) Yeast 7 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.35 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 17.95 l of water at 70.8 C 66.0 C 60 min
Mash Out Add 0.00 l of water at 75.0 C 75.0 C 20 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 14.52 l water at 75.0 C
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does this look about right?

What about the fermentation profile?

I'm thinking:

1. pitch at 16 degrees for 24 hours
2. drop to 12 degrees until gravity of 1.020 reached
3. raise to 18 degrees for 24 - 48 hours
4. drop back to 12 degrees
5. drop by 1 degree every 24 hours, finishing at 2 degrees
6. lager at 2 degrees for 14 days
7. bottle and store in fridge

Am I on the right track?

 

[droid]

i have only done a dunkles bock with those big % of munich and vienna, can't comment on caraamber

i am onto my 3rd or 4th marzen and am really happy with the recipe, everyone that has tried it, likes it so I'd consider backing off the vienna and munich for some pils malt but that's just me

things to note would be 64C mash - I'm not sure about bumping your ferment temp around like that, hopefully someone will help

here is my marzen recipe to peruse

Title: Life on marzen 3

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Märzen
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 43.9 liters (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 51.9 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.050
Efficiency: 72% (ending kettle)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.059
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5.97%
IBU (tinseth): 23.8
SRM (daniels): 9.78

FERMENTABLES:
3.65 kg - Munich (31.3%)
8 kg - Pilsner (68.7%)

HOPS:
20 g - Magnum, Type: Pellet, AA: 15, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 17.36
40 g - mt hood, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.6, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 6.45

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Decoction, Temp: 64 C, Time: 90 min, Amount: 36 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 3.8 L/kg

YEAST:
Wyeast - Bavarian Lager 2206
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 7.78 - 14.44 C
Fermentation Temp: 10 C

 

[BKBrews]

i have only done a dunkles bock with those big % of munich and vienna, can't comment on caraamber

i am onto my 3rd or 4th marzen and am really happy with the recipe, everyone that has tried it, likes it so I'd consider backing off the vienna and munich for some pils malt but that's just me

things to note would be 64C mash - I'm not sure about bumping your ferment temp around like that, hopefully someone will help

here is my marzen recipe to peruse

Title: Life on marzen 3

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Märzen
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 43.9 liters (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 51.9 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.050
Efficiency: 72% (ending kettle)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.059
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5.97%
IBU (tinseth): 23.8
SRM (daniels): 9.78

FERMENTABLES:
3.65 kg - Munich (31.3%)
8 kg - Pilsner (68.7%)

HOPS:
20 g - Magnum, Type: Pellet, AA: 15, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 17.36
40 g - mt hood, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.6, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 6.45

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Decoction, Temp: 64 C, Time: 90 min, Amount: 36 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 3.8 L/kg

YEAST:
Wyeast - Bavarian Lager 2206
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 7.78 - 14.44 C
Fermentation Temp: 10 C

What's the specific reason for the 64 degree mash temp?

I played around with a few different temps in beersmith, but anything under 66 degrees dropped the expected FG too low for the style (Oktoberfest supposed to finish at 1.012 or above).

I actually really want to do something like the Stone and Wood Green Coast Lager, but I can't find a clone for it anywhere and beersmith really doesn't provide guidelines for Aussie beers.

 

[droid]

I go for 64 because it is supposed to be a dry finish - up the og and then the fg will fit or mash thicker or ... ignore :chug:

i should ad that it works at 64 because its a decoction so yeah - a bit different in that regard

 

[Fraser's BRB]

I've had this one lagering for about 3 weeks now. I plan to keep lagering until mid October, but early tastings are very promising.

Recipe: Octoberfestivus
Brewer: BRB
Asst Brewer:
Style: Oktoberfest/Märzen
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 28.84 l
Post Boil Volume: 26.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 22.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 21.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 21.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2.431 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 38.4 %
1.947 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 30.7 %
1.463 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain 3 23.1 %
0.492 kg Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 4 7.8 %
43.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil Hop 5 17.8 IBUs
14.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil Hop 6 3.5 IBUs
4.0 pkg Bavarian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2206) [124. Yeast 7 -


Mash Schedule: BRB Single Infusion Mash, Batch sparge
Total Grain Weight: 6.333 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash Step Add 30.42 l of water at 70.7 C 66.0 C 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.0 C over 4 min 75.0 C 10 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 7.26l) of 75.6 C water

 

[BKBrews]

I've had this one lagering for about 3 weeks now. I plan to keep lagering until mid October, but early tastings are very promising.

Recipe: Octoberfestivus
Brewer: BRB
Asst Brewer:
Style: Oktoberfest/Märzen
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 28.84 l
Post Boil Volume: 26.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 22.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 21.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 21.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2.431 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 38.4 %
1.947 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 30.7 %
1.463 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) Grain 3 23.1 %
0.492 kg Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 4 7.8 %
43.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil Hop 5 17.8 IBUs
14.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil Hop 6 3.5 IBUs
4.0 pkg Bavarian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2206) [124. Yeast 7 -


Mash Schedule: BRB Single Infusion Mash, Batch sparge
Total Grain Weight: 6.333 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash Step Add 30.42 l of water at 70.7 C 66.0 C 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.0 C over 4 min 75.0 C 10 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 7.26l) of 75.6 C water

I used Caramunich in my first ever brew and I'm a fan.... might look at adding that to this as well.

Care to share your fermentation process? Is mine close to the mark?

 

[kaiserben]

What about the fermentation profile?

I'm thinking:

1. pitch at 16 degrees for 24 hours
2. drop to 12 degrees until gravity of 1.020 reached
3. raise to 18 degrees for 24 - 48 hours
4. drop back to 12 degrees
5. drop by 1 degree every 24 hours, finishing at 2 degrees
6. lager at 2 degrees for 14 days
7. bottle and store in fridge

Am I on the right track?

I'm not sure leaving it at 16C for 24 hours is the best idea. I always pitch a degree lower than my intended ferment temp and then let it rise to ferment temp immediately after pitching.

I'd also recommend rehydrating those 3 packs of dried yeast if you want to keep your cell count up anywhere near the recommended pitching rate of 460bn viable cells for 23L of 1.054 lager wort (not rehydrating will see about half your viable cells die off before they have a chance to ferment wort). Even better would be if you take into account exactly how long ago the packs were manufactured. Maybe use MrMalty yeast calculator to help you make sure you're pitching enough cells.

 

[Fraser's BRB]

Pitch at or below ferment temp, there's a fair bit of supporting evidence to show pitching below and letting temp rise is beneficial.
Mine I pitched yeast straight from fridge into wort at 10 deg. Which was my primary temp.
As gravity approached fg at about 7 days I raised to 18 over about 12 hours and held for 48 hours. Then dropped slowly to lagering temps before transferring to keg for lagering.

 

[Fraser's BRB]

Kaisers point about yeast cell count is well worth considering also. I built up a large amount of cells in a starter for mine.

 

[BKBrews]

Ok that's perfect - I have always been rehydrating my dried yeast anyway so that's covered. So once you get to 18 degrees for 48 hours, what exact temp are you dropping it to and roughly how many degrees per day?

I keep researching lagering but no one really gives definitive answers on the exact steps. Is it pretty much the same for all lagers once you've dialled in your process (not including discrepancies in ideal primary temps for different yeasts etc)

 

[Fraser's BRB]

I haven't done that many lagers but really the only difference appears to be ferment temp for different yeast strains. Diacetyl rest is largely dependent on grain type and yeast strain.
When dropping to lager temps I dropped 2-3deg a day down to 2 deg. Left it there about 48 hours before transferring to keg for long lagering.

 

[kaiserben]

Ok that's perfect - I have always been rehydrating my dried yeast anyway so that's covered. So once you get to 18 degrees for 48 hours, what exact temp are you dropping it to and roughly how many degrees per day?

I keep researching lagering but no one really gives definitive answers on the exact steps. Is it pretty much the same for all lagers once you've dialled in your process (not including discrepancies in ideal primary temps for different yeasts etc)

Even though you rehydrate, I'd still recommend you figure out how many viable cells you've got in those 3 packs by plugging your packaging date into something like Mr Malty (not the Use By date, but the date it was packaged. If your packs are a month or more old you might be under-pitching).

Lagers vary a little bit. Just like ales vary a little bit. Off the top of my head I've seen it recommended that a schwarzbier might be best fermented at 12 or 13C. (or at the higher end of a yeast's recommended ideal range, or even a degree or 2 above that range). But most styles will benefit from being held at the lower end of that range.

The biggest thing with lagers that I'm concentrating on at the moment is when I drop the temp down for a bit of lagering (in primary). I'm paraphrasing from stuff I've read here, but: Drop the temp down between -2C and +3C. Personally I go for 0C, because the lower you get it the less time required to get good results. From memory: at 0C holding it for 2 weeks is a recommended minimum. For each 1C higher you should hold it a week longer. (so if 2 weeks at 0C is good, then 3 weeks at 1C, or 4 weeks at 2C, 5 weeks at 3C).

So in practice I tend to hold at 0C for as close to 2 weeks as I can spare the fridge for. I've had great results.
I've also held at more like 2C for 2 weeks and the results have been not nearly as good.
I've held it at 3C for over a month and the results weren't good.

Still with me? Here's more:

IMO how well you handle that "bulk lagering" step will affect how long is ideal to lager in the bottle or keg after packaging up your beer.

Some beers I've bulk lagered at 2C for 2 weeks seem to come good after 3 months further lagering in the bottle (at household fridge temp of about 5C). Some beers I've held at 0C for 2 weeks are great as soon as it's carbonated (moreso the lighter coloured lagers. I suspect darker lagers will benefit from being left a bit longer in the bottle or keg).

EDIT: Edited a typo.

 

[kaiserben]

And in the above I'm talking minimums. The longer you hold each lagering phase the better. (although how much better might be up for debate).

 

[BKBrews]

You're a legend. Thanks for the info.

Christmas is at my parents this year, so I plan to do the fermentation lagering at home in my ferm fridge, but once bottled I can transfer them straight to my dads beer fridge to bottle lager until Christmas. Looks like I should try and do this batch ASAP so I can store them for a couple of months prior to the day.

 

[mckenry]

I haven't done that many lagers but really the only difference appears to be ferment temp for different yeast strains. Diacetyl rest is largely dependent on grain type and yeast strain.
When dropping to lager temps I dropped 2-3deg a day down to 2 deg. Left it there about 48 hours before transferring to keg for long lagering.

I think you'll find grain type has nothing to do with diacetyl. You're probably confusing it with DMS. There is plenty of info out there to read up on re SMM, the precursor to DMS.

 

[Reman]

I'd forget the crystal, mash long and lowish (I like sound of 64). Maybe add a touch of melanoiden malt. Go top shelf German malt too, it's worth the extra $5.

I would look at your water and see if some calcium chloride would do some malty goodness. Try to hit 5.4PH.

For fermentation I go with a 3L starter for 22L, starting at 8c and then over a week letting it ride up to 18-20 to cleanup before dropping to a 3c lager for at least 2-4 weeks. The longer the better.

And Wyeast 2206 is fantastic.