Are Kit Yeasts Really That Bad?

[kenny23]

I notice on the forums alot of people talking about how rubbish kit yeats are. Now im just new to brewing and havint had the chance of using a us-05 etc. I dont think that kit yeasts are bad if temp is kept right. is it really worth adding the 5 bucks extra to your brew if you allready have yeast sitting there.?

 

[flattop]

Depends what you want!
I brewed a lot of lighter kits at the start such as Cerveza's, i had a lot of residual tastes that made the beers less palatable.
Higher temps and age of kits may have contributed but the most difference i found was simply changing yeasts.
If you are doing darker beers they are more forgiving as the bigger flavors hide aftertastes, i brewed a brown ale which was way over use by date with a kit yeast and it came out fine.
One of the problems with kit yeasts is they can be quite old and be on the shelf for months or longer, the cell count is lower and they are a little "stale" for want of a better word.
A good yeast would be kept at your LHBS in the fridge, hopefully the cell count is higher and it's fresher for a start (due to turnover).
Another thing is the style of yeast, kits yeasts are mostly Ale yeasts to compensate for brewing at higher temps (i guess the makers consider a kit brewer wont have a frigemate).

As i said i brewed mostly Kit Cerveza's and i got by far my best finish from US-05 thanks to recommendations on here.

 

[Bribie G]

I did an Aussie dark on Nottingham and it got infected. So I did an emergency brew (it's for a comp week after next). Couldn't wait for an order from Ross so I used two packs of Mauri Ale yeast (a common kit yeast) and bottled last night. The beer tastes great and bang on style for an Old. It's an all grain brew and I kept it bang on 19 degrees. Let's see how it goes in the comp. If it doesn't win anything at least I'll get feedback from the panel.

I also have a house lager made on w - 34/70 Weihenstephan and an identical brew done (in a third of the time) on Mauri Lager Yeast, and bottling tomorrow. I'll take two bottles to the June BABBs meeting for a blind taste-off and as the Americans say, then we'll see how the cow sits in the cabbage patch :icon_cheers:

 

[EK]

When I first got started in home brewing, a few people that I used to work with always said that dark beers came out better than the paler ones. I think that this is partially due to the richer malt flavours obscuring any unwanted flavours from a kit yeast. That being said, some of the better beers I have made are with kit yeasts. A kit yeast can make a good beer, but you need to have good temperature control (in my opinion).

If you are trying to make any beer, the kit yeast will do. If you are trying to make a specific beer then you may need to purchase a separate yeast.

:icon_cheers:
EK

 

[Bribie G]

Yes, the styles I am doing don't need much yeast character, and so far I am finding that Mauri Ale 514 Lager 497, fermented below 20, seem to give a nice clean beer. On the other hand if doing a Yorkshire Bitter or a UK Mild for example there's no way I'd use dried yeast and would go for a liquid yeast every time.

APAs I would use US-05 but if a home grown equivalent were available I'd look at that.

Therefore what does interest me is that on their website Mauri state that more beer yeasts are on the way in the near future. If they can eventually offer Australian Made products that are the equivalent of US-05 or S-23 whatever I'd be very interested to try them when they come out.

Forum member RdeVyun lives down the street from the Mauri plant, in Toowoomba, and is trying to score a tour :icon_cheers: . He says they are a big concern with tankers of yeast going out of the place, no doubt they supply masses of yeast to mobs such as Tip Top, hot bread shops etc so they aren't a pissy little concern and going on their range of wine yeasts they obviously have a big research and quality section.

Judging by the predominance of Coopers and Morgans Kits here and overseas Mauri are a major brewing yeast producer in their own right so well placed to develop some interesting new strains, hopefully.

 

[EK]

Yes, the styles I am doing don't need much yeast character, and so far I am finding that Mauri Ale 514 Lager 497, fermented below 20, seem to give a nice clean beer.

I agree completely, however the problem is that if you accidentally drop the temperature too far below 20 then the yeast may nod off (at least in my experience).

:icon_cheers:
EK

 

[mauriceatron]

Just one more thing: "All kit yeast packets are rubbish" is a generalisation. Like any generalisation, all generalisations are false.

You've simply got to apply common sense to what you're doing as there are some kits out there with good yeast in them. If you look at the Cooper's Heritage Lager in their premium series, it comes with a genuine lager yeast which is a better strain than the one in the international series euro lager. In the case of that tin, it's not worth the extra money on a saflager yeast unless you're experimenting with yeast, or you genuinely can taste the better beer with a side by side tasting.

I would definitely say that temperature control is more important that buying better yeast or other ingredients. Temperature control gets rid of many of those flavours that "just don't taste like it should be there". Once you can get good and stable temperature control, then it's time to get the better yeast. A lot of people say that crystal or something else got rid of those tastes but I really think they just covered them up

Keep temps in 18~22C (20C would be better). In winter time you may need to use a heater belt or pad connected to a timer depending on ambient temperatures. Cooper's gold packet yeasts (ie from the basic kits, ale yeast) nod off around 16C just like EK says in his post. All ale yeast will do this.

Also: re-hydrate your yeast! You're wasting your money on better yeasts if you don't re-hydrate. See the fermentis website for details on how to do this (go to the craft brewing section, not the home brewing section, and look for the Tips-and-Tricks.pdf file). If you don't re-hydrate your yeast now, start doing it even if it's just a Home Brand kit. Get into the habit of doing this.

Once you know you can taste the difference between a better kit yeast and an ordinary kit yeast in a side by side tasting of the same beer, then start looking at brand name yeast to replace your kit yeast. Once you know that you make a better beer with a brand name yeast, you can then make a decision on the value of improvement to your beer to decide whether or not to make the change to branded yeast.

Experiment and have some fun. Enjoy drinking your beers.

 

[BoilerBoy]

I notice on the forums alot of people talking about how rubbish kit yeats are. Now im just new to brewing and havint had the chance of using a us-05 etc. I dont think that kit yeasts are bad if temp is kept right. is it really worth adding the 5 bucks extra to your brew if you allready have yeast sitting there.?

Yes.

Cheers.

BB

 

[rclemmett]

Like any generalisation, all generalisations are false.

Nice.

 

[Adamt]

The problems associated with kit yeasts are mainly due to freshness; it's not that the strain is bad it's just the viability issues.

 

[lczaban]

The other thing that I can tell is that the yeasts that are supplied with kits tend to be generic yeasts and they are selected to be (somewhat) forgiving under a variety of conditions. You can get a reasonable result if you are careful with the way you use them (ie using fresh kits by buying from reputable HBS, watching temp control etc), but IMHO you have better control over the beer you end up with if you go for a purpose-bred yeast. Getting a yeast that is specific for your brew (US-05 for American Ales, S-04/Nottingham for English Ales etc) helps ensure the end result, and for a couple of extra dollars it is a worthwhile investment to get you drinking the beer you want.

 

[RdeVjun]

Forum member RdeVyun lives down the street from the Mauri plant, in Toowoomba, and is trying to score a tour :icon_cheers: . He says they are a big concern with tankers of yeast going out of the place, no doubt they supply masses of yeast to mobs such as Tip Top, hot bread shops etc so they aren't a pissy little concern and going on their range of wine yeasts they obviously have a big research and quality section.

Yep, sorry folks, no advances to report with this yet, I've been away with work and my spare time is often shoehorned with HBing... I don't rate the chances of achieving this bit of recon too highly (clean rooms, trade- secrets etc), but I'll give it a try and if it does come off, are any other locals interested? PM me if so, we could make a day of it but also make it more worthwile with a bigger group.

BTW, the aromas coming out of the factory at times are amazing, every so often there's a real stinker though, venting lager yeasts perhaps! They do produce an enormous amount of product with tankers and pallets of stuff evident most days. And I agree with BribieG, they are a substantial concern with an extensive range of not only beer brewing but also bakery and vintner lines with local and international links. I am itching to see just how dried yeast is actually produced without killing it but also to see the production scale, measurement and control processes (part of my job) and also handling. But we'll see, they might knock the idea back yet.

WRT the OP, there's a broad spectrum of kit yeasts available, some good some bad and obviously with most kits you don't get to choose the strain with which you're inoculating the wort. Some kit manufacturers supply reliable, common and well- known strains though, Morgan's Chairman's Selection is one example we discussed recently. Kits aren't always handled well enough in transport and distribution to ensure that by the time you come to pitch it, there is enough viable yeast left to kick fermentation off rapidly. Having enough of it in the sachet is important too, I wonder if 6g is enough, its worked for me sometimes, others not and I've had to repitch a few, but not all sachets are 6g either. Occasionally I use the kit yeast, but usually they end up in the fridge with a fair- sized collection I've accumulated.

 

[lucas]

I notice on the forums alot of people talking about how rubbish kit yeats are. Now im just new to brewing and havint had the chance of using a us-05 etc. I dont think that kit yeasts are bad if temp is kept right. is it really worth adding the 5 bucks extra to your brew if you allready have yeast sitting there.?

if your worried about a measly $5 to gain additional control over the taste of your beer, then you probably havent developed your pallet enough to appreciate the difference it will make. dont worry to much about it; a lot of us started brewing for cheap beer, but eventually ended up learning so much about beer and it's many flavours that the "cheap beer" aspect of the hobby mostly vanished.

if you dont think it's worth $5 to have more control over your finished product then keep doing what you're doing. if you keep at it, you'll eventually get to the point where you've tried everything but you cant get your beer tasting in the exact way you're looking for and you'll start looking at different yeasts. it's not just a matter of tin yeast vs more expensive yeast; it's more about a single strain of yeast vs a wider variety of yeast strains. they wont make your beer objectively better, but they'll each make it different. as mentioned above, some tins do have more specialised yeasts included, and in my opinion i'd put them on the the variety side of the comparison. more choices means more possible flavours which means more diverse beers.

I think most people who argue against kit yeast are really arguing against the lowest common denominator type yeast; I'm sure I remember at one stage ESB 3kg tins came standard with saf yeast, technically making it a "kit yeast", but certainly not the sort I'd be chucking out.

 

[mauriceatron]

Just to add something a bit more with a technical slant to this discussion, I went and checked a text book which I have covering brewing yeast. Boulton & Quain in Brewing Yeast & Fermentation state quite specifically with dried yeast that:

"Dried yeast is resistant to storage over periods of several months provided it is kept at cool temperatures and is vacuum packed." [p486]

Unfortunately, they didn't elaborate or reference this singularly simple but, in reality, powerful statement. Nor do they reference which of the two key conditions are more important or have a viability over time/temperature chart which is what I was hoping to find. However, it's those last two words which caught my attention: "vacuum packed". That was something which I had never considered before so I got a bit curious and had a think about the packaged kit yeasts.

To me, the Cooper's yeast in all their kits that I've seen are not vacuum packed. The Country Brewer's yeast which they clearly purchase in bulk and back down into 10g packets are not vacuum packed, they are definitely only heat sealed. I also noticed that they are no longer selling Fermentis yeast in the original Fermentis packet now; they are probably buying it in bulk and packing it down to the same package as their house branded Ale Yeast and Lager Yeast, again simply heat sealed.

Not too sure about other kit yeast packages with other manufacturers as I don't actually brew other than Coopers if I do a kit.

The Fermentis package is a nitrogen flushed package but is also more tightly packed around the yeast before opening compared to the "puffy" gold Cooper's yeast packages.

Soooooo..... To get back to the OP's original question, the yeast strain is good and will produce good beer if fresh but if it's old then the viability will be low (caused by packaging and handling problems), effectively meaning that you will have a low pitching rate.

Now, if you've pitched a too smaller number of yeast cells (ie low pitching rate), there are some tell-tale signs to help you identify this:

• Slow fermentation - this may allow for increased competitions of wild yeast and bacteria producing those legendary off flavours
• Amplification of undesirable aromas like acetaldehyde (think green apple or grass flavours) and esters (fruity, jam, banana flavours)
• Possibly an increase of diacetyl which will come out tasting buttery.

With all that, just remember to taste your beer well. If you notice these flavours and you've recorded the yeast use-by or manufacturing date (you do keep records don't you?), then you can then make an informed decision yourself to see if the $5 package or branded yeast from the fridge in the HBS is worth it. Again, poor fermentation temperature control will bring in off flavours like those mentioned above so I still say that it's better you work on your brewing procedures first and fermentation control, then look to better ingredients if you want to make a better beer.

To answer the question, are they rubbish. I'd say No, they are not rubbish, they are likely to be a good strain. Are they not at their peak when you actually get them? Probably no longer at their peak and may be not as good as buying a branded yeast packet like a Fermentis.

One last thing on Fermentis yeast though. They are obviously imported by a distributor and we don't know how they store them in the warehouse before ending up in the fridge of the HBS. It's quite possible that the first time they see refrigeration is when they hit the fridge in the HBS. I don't know. But, having worked in import for a number of years I can say that it's up to two weeks ex-factory to distributor ex-USA by air freight and maybe 5 weeks by sea freight. I'm guessing but if it were me I'd be air freighting and that's totally a commercial decision, nothing to do with caring for home brewers. So I'm guessing that there is at least a 2 week period when they are sitting un-refrigerated between factory and HBS, but in reality, probably more.

So even brand name yeast is not a panacea.

I need a beer after typing all that. It's only 11:30AM. Damn....

 

[wyethm]

I don't think anyone's mentioned it but if you worried about the cost, you can re-use the yeast cake (stuff at the bottom of the fermenter) in the next brew if they are similar styles. Or you can store it in a sterile container in the fridge for later.

To re-use straight away I scoop out 1/2 cup and put aside while I make the next brew. To store I put 1/2 cup in a sterilised bottle and top up with boiled water and put in the back of my fridge.

There are more complicated processes to clean and multiply it, but I've used both of the above with no problems. You get about three 1/2 cups out of a normal brew and can re-use them 6 times, so the $5 goes a long way.

Also ESB kits come with either US-04 or Saf-23 (depending on the kit), so I suppose it depends on the kit you buy as to the quality of the yeast they supply.

IMO it costs me a very small amount and it is one of the things that has improved the quality of the last few brews (no more homebrew twang).

Cheers Mark

 

[mauriceatron]

I don't think anyone's mentioned it but if you worried about the cost, you can re-use the yeast cake (stuff at the bottom of the fermenter) in the next brew if they are similar styles. Or you can store it in a sterile container in the fridge for later.

Agreed. I think this is what most of us do. On about the 3rd or 4th re-pitch the yeast gets really good.

However, you need to be excellent on your sanitation for this to work. Using this method will let you know if your sanitation processes needs improving because any kind of minor infection goes rampant and quickly and unmercifully takes over. I practised this technique on Home Brand kits at first just because they were the cheapest thing to use (at $7.50 + $5 for brewing sugar, it's cheap). The couple that I got wrong either in the fermentor or in the handling/storage of the yeast didn't cost me much.

Make sure you taste your beer before re-pitching. If you notice an off taste in the beer that's not caused by lack of CO2 or the beer style, then it's likely there's something in there and don't re-pitch that yeast.

 

[daemon]

Yep, sorry folks, no advances to report with this yet, I've been away with work and my spare time is often shoehorned with HBing... I don't rate the chances of achieving this bit of recon too highly (clean rooms, trade- secrets etc), but I'll give it a try and if it does come off, are any other locals interested? PM me if so, we could make a day of it but also make it more worthwile with a bigger group.

If you do organise something I'd be interested. I haven't ever had too many great results from kit yeasts (if Coopers is indeed the Mauri 514 strain) but if I had a fresh "sample" I'd be willing to try again

Used liquid yeast for the first time a month ago, the 1318 wyeast is lovely in porters / english beers. The best part is the variety but the choice is getting easier when dried prices are on the increase.

 

[King Brown]

It all depends on what your brewing, and of course what your tastes are (as the others have said)
If you want to experiment with better yeasts but don't want to spend alot of money, try culturing from a bottle of commercial beer, that way you get a free beer with your yeast

 

[HoppingMad]

If you want to brew a beer you're really proud to share around, that's truer to style and has the flavours of the beer you enjoy drinking commercially, then you do need to start dabbling by lashing out on an extra $5 or more for a sachet of decent yeast.

I used Brigalow & Coopers yeast fermented at high temps (as per their instructions) for years and ignorance was bliss. I spent my days drinking cidery estery tasting beers in the sun without knowing there was anything better to be had and oblivious to the fact that yeast and temperature played such a role in the end product. Now I'm much wiser to the possibilities.

Lash out on a new yeast I say. Dip the toe in. You won't regret it. Or if you think it's a con, try brewing one beer with a kit yeast and one of the same kit with a specialty yeast.

That said there are some ok yeasts with kits as others have mentioned - Muntons don't do a bad job with theirs. Coopers can turn out ok, but at high temps this yeast is diabolical and throws off all kinds of crazy twangy esters, so that sucker needs to be contained!

Hopper.

 

[Nick JD]

I've done exactly the same extract recipe with both 7g of Safale s-04 and a Coopers kit yeast - both at 18-20 degrees. As expected, they tasted different, with the s-04 being slightly better.

The Coopers left a very hard (hard to clean) sediment and fermentation was quicker by a day or two.

I've gotten very used to s-04, so I think that was the main reason I liked it better ... but IMHO it's not the kit yeasts that are bad, but rather the kit itself.