Another 'To Decoct or Not to Decoct thread'.. Lagers...

[JoshAsh]

I just picked up a copy of 'New Brewing Lager Beer' by Noonan in the ongoing quest to brew better Lagers...
It's a great book and one thing that stood out was him saying that you're not going to get really authentic taste without decocting undermodified malts...
Given that the only lager malts that seem to be available nowadays are fully modified malts the question arises whether there is any point in decocting, especially when you can add melanoidin malt itself..

Now i'll confess to being an absolute noob in brewing, and generally a single step infusion masher... (i've only been going for a couple of years) - and i'm getting some good beers..

Some ongoing problems I'm having are
- I'm getting chill haze :unsure: Noonan says a protein rest can help eliminate this.. Has anyone noticed a protein rest helps eliminate chill haze? I am currently using irish moss... a plate chiller.. and lagering with some mixed results, some beers are coming out clear without chill haze and others have haze.
- Water.... Looking at the current month's water analysis from SEQWater (i'm in Brisbane) PH 7.2 with 60 ppm bicarbonates, and looking at the tables in Noonan's chapter on water it seems he would suggest adding a small amount of acid to target Pilsner's and Light munich lagers...

Any help appreciated...

 

[manticle]

The main point for decocting for me is flavour. It's also fun.

I don't know how close the flavour of melanoiden is to decocting but there are multiple flavours associated with melanoidens. I prefer simplifying ingredients if I can get a result through a process instead.

I do a short protein rest (55 degrees) for most beers. I notice its effect on head formation and retention rather than clarity. For me, clarity comes with time and that includes conditioning in the cold. I also don't drink beer at 2 degrees. The plate chiller will include cold break which I understand to contribute to chill haze. Enough time lagering and or PVVP/Polyclar post fermentation should help. Alternatively try brewbrite in the boil.

Water/mash chemistry is definitely important but you'll need to do some reading and calculate how much. With a light (coloured) grain bill, acid (food grade phosphoric, lactic or citric are 3 possibilities) is often required to get mash pH in the right range. If you want to be really precise you can target one sacchrification enzyme and aim for mash pH to get within a beesdick of that. Alternatively you can just aim for a narrow range between 5.2 and 5.6 (mash not water). Aim for the lower end with paler coloured beers and measure at room temperature.

 

[dent]

Cleaner mash wort will help with your chill haze - recirculation vs BIAB for instance. Oxidation plays a factor too.

Here is a good read about haze.

 

[HBHB]

Mark wrote a really good one about haze and clarity a while back. Worth having a search for it. MHB? Can't find it on search which is full of glitches still.

 

[RdeVjun]

As per manticle, I would endorse decoction for best flavour effects, plus it is indeed a heap of fun while testing your patience and endurance. Melanoidin, or any other spec malt for that matter, doesn't seem to lend quite the same depth of character as decoction mashing.
Braukaiser is an excellent decoction resource http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing
Brewbrite in the boil, Polyclar in the fermenter, plus adequate lagering should all help with minimising haze, at least that's been my experience. Brilliant clarity is often the holy grail of pale beer brewers, I personally felt it was more a hiding to nothing, even in competitive brewing where the additional point or so hardly seems worth the disproportionate effort (eg. filtration, secondary etc), but these simple steps and always having enough patience have been sufficient.
Guess your water should be OK, look to acidify it if the mash performance isn't up to snuff, use either lactic acid or acidulated malt.

 

[Wee Davy]

I just picked up a copy of 'New Brewing Lager Beer' by Noonan in the ongoing quest to brew better Lagers...
It's a great book and one thing that stood out was him saying that you're not going to get really authentic taste without decocting undermodified malts...
Given that the only lager malts that seem to be available nowadays are fully modified malts the question arises whether there is any point in decocting, especially when you can add melanoidin malt itself..

Now i'll confess to being an absolute noob in brewing, and generally a single step infusion masher... (i've only been going for a couple of years) - and i'm getting some good beers..

Some ongoing problems I'm having are
- I'm getting chill haze :unsure: Noonan says a protein rest can help eliminate this.. Has anyone noticed a protein rest helps eliminate chill haze? I am currently using irish moss... a plate chiller.. and lagering with some mixed results, some beers are coming out clear without chill haze and others have haze.
- Water.... Looking at the current month's water analysis from SEQWater (i'm in Brisbane) PH 7.2 with 60 ppm bicarbonates, and looking at the tables in Noonan's chapter on water it seems he would suggest adding a small amount of acid to target Pilsner's and Light munich lagers...

Any help appreciated...

Greg, sadly passed away, but since he wrote this book he said that with modern converted malts decoction is not necessary. Now that's not to say you shouldn't do it because it is a good experience if you have the time, but not necessary. If you want to get some additional flavour that decoction may give, you can add 2-3% of melanoidin

 

[Bribie G]

Modern German brewers mainly use hochkurz infusion mashes. However I would love to get thst rich fresh bread taste you still get with the likes of Zywiec or Kozel. Might give deoction a blast myself and pick up some floor malted from Ross when I call in Saturday.

Edit. Galaxy note stylus says no.

 

[neal32]

I reckon Noonan is right and in the past I used to have chill haze. I haven't had it since I have been employing a 55 degree rest for 10 mins and building my water from RO. Better head retention and lacing as well.

inb4 you don't need a Protein rest and can brew awesome beer with tap water, the much often quoted dogma of people that haven't tried either.

 

[JoshAsh]

I reckon Noonan is right and in the past I used to have chill haze. I haven't had it since I have been employing a 55 degree rest for 10 mins and building my water from RO. Better head retention and lacing as well.

inb4 you don't need a Protein rest and can brew awesome beer with tap water, the much often quoted dogma of people that haven't tried either.

Cheers, i will start protein resting and see what happens....
What kind of RO setup do you have? I'm using Brisbane tapwater here but have heard from Ross the water chemistry in redlands shire is a lot better for Pilsner type beers, it's almost free from carbonates.. I'm thinking about turning up to a park with a few cubes..

 

[JDW81]

What kind of RO setup do you have? I'm using Brisbane tapwater here but have heard from Ross the water chemistry in redlands shire is a lot better for Pilsner type beers, it's almost free from carbonates.. I'm thinking about turning up to a park with a few cubes..

I'm a fan of decoction as I enjoy the process. I find it adds something extra to my beers, especially hefes and dunkles. Braukaiser has some great info on decoction. I generally follow the Hochkurz process as it doesn't take too long, but still has plenty of time on the boil.

As far as your water chemistry goes I'd be doing some reading and research before worrying too much about trying to change things around. There are 4 great Brewstrong podcasts on water + a few good books which will start to give you an idea of what is important and why (Ray Daniels - Designing Great Beers, John Palmer - How to Brew). It is probably worth doing to research as to why you add different salts to the mash so you understand the reasoning behind it. I'm only just starting to get into water adjustments, and it has taken me a fair bit of reading to cement the importance of different ions, pH and residual alkalinity for different beers.

There are a stack of things you can do to improve clarity, ranging from boil additions, fermenter finings, cold conditioning and lagering. All play their role in getting crystal clear beer. Filtering is another option if it is something you really want to strive for.

 

[pat86]

I'm thinking about turning up to a park with a few cubes..

:beerbang: