Another 'i Have A Possible Infection' Thread

[big78sam]

Hi all,

I have been brewing for over a year and have never had an infection but I think I probably have one now with my first AG, BIAB in an urn. There is a sour aroma and flavour from the beer after a week in primary. Like the aroma of yeast trub, just stronger with a sour twang. Possibly a sour milk taste??? Tasted OK straight from the cube.

Below is a brief description of the factors that I think could have influenced the result:

• Didn't get a "rolling" boil, more of a strong simmer. I had issues with the urn. Temp was 95 and was kept at this for over an hour during hop additions etc
• I sterilized all fermentation equipment as normal (as I mentioned, this has always done the job for extracts)
• The urn, and cube were used for the first time but I had placed boiling water in the cube for 10 minutes and shook a few times, then sanitised, then rinsed with boiled water then wort into the cube at high temp
• I mashed for 90 minutes.
• I pitched at too high a temp, around 28 degrees but placed in a fridge which I had just switched on with some frozen PETs. I don't know how long until it fell to 20, at least 6 hours
• Fermented at 18 to 20 degrees, got to 23 once for maybe 12 hours.
• Recipe was DSGA, with US05. I didn't rehydrate
• It was a new tap, but I had placed in boiling water for 10 minutes and then ran heaps of sanitizer through the tap before using.
• SG after a week is 1009 and there was a lot more bubbling from the ferenter when I racked to secondary than normal even though I didn;t tsir it up any more than usual.

I know it's hard to make a call without tasting/smelling but does anyone have any insight on a possible cause. I just racked to a second fermenter and have a second brew in the cube that I don't want to put in the first fermenter if it's likely a problem that could repeat itself.

Thanks Sam

 

[manticle]

What are you using to sanitise?
How long was the lag time before ferment kicked off?
Did you ferment in a cube or did you no chill? If you no chilled are you one hundred percent certain the seal was on tight? My guess is that pitching at 28 wasn't a no chill but worth checking.
Did you do things like break apart your taps, remove the o ring, clean the thread etc?
Was your racking hose clean?

Is it sour like vinegar or lactic acid?
Could you revive into a deliberately sour beer? Age it, add fruit, that kind of thing.

Too high a pitching temp shouldn't lead to infection - just possible undesirable esters. 23 degrees likewise. Possibly the lower boil but I would assume you'd be more likely to get DMS than sourness (I could be wrong on that though).

 

[glaab]

I've been brewing about a yr too and I think I've just kegged my first infected beer. An extract DSGA. Not sure yet but it had a slight vinegar aroma and tasted a bit funny. My fermenter tap had a slight leak from the o-ring, probably only a dozen drops over the fortnight so I didn't bother to touch it. When I racked into the kegs I noticed a little bit of green mould around the o-ring where it was leaking which I'm afraid might have contaminated the beer. [I had dissasmbled the tap/ o-ring and sanitized them with starsan] Probably a million to one shot that you had the same problem but it goes to show you [ me ] how easy it is to lose a batch. Anyway I suspect that only you will be able to find the weak link, best of luck getting it sorted. Cheers :beerbang:

 

[big78sam]

What are you using to sanitise?
How long was the lag time before ferment kicked off?
Did you ferment in a cube or did you no chill? If you no chilled are you one hundred percent certain the seal was on tight? My guess is that pitching at 28 wasn't a no chill but worth checking.
Did you do things like break apart your taps, remove the o ring, clean the thread etc?
Was your racking hose clean?

Is it sour like vinegar or lactic acid?
Could you revive into a deliberately sour beer? Age it, add fruit, that kind of thing.

Too high a pitching temp shouldn't lead to infection - just possible undesirable esters. 23 degrees likewise. Possibly the lower boil but I would assume you'd be more likely to get DMS than sourness (I could be wrong on that though).

To answer your questions, I sanitized using brewcraft no rinse sanitiser (for about 4 times the recommended period). The hose was sanitized as well and I made sure the hose was completely submerged and filled with sanitiser. I didn't remove the o ring from the fermenter (I never do) but will do so before the next brew. I normally leave sanitizer in the fermenter and turn on its side for 10 minutes 4 times after turning 90 degrees. It was no chill but I had to pitch and it didn't get low enough after 24 hours in the cube. I'm not sure of the lag time until fermentation started.

I'd say sour like lactic acid. I used new taps so didn't break them apart but did clean and sanitize the thread when changing taps. I guess the seal on the cube was on tight as I had to squeeze really hard to get rid of the head space and I was still squeezed tight 24 hours later.

I'm going to tip it. I hate (HATE!!!!) the sour fruit, lambic style of beer.


EDIT: The other thing was that as this was my first AG I wanted to rule out anything associated with that part of the process. It may have just been a coincidence that this was my first ever infection.
I guess my question was just to see if anyone could identify the exact infection from my dodgy description and possibly from that give me some help in identifying the cause.

 

[manticle]

Sounds like you've covered most bases. Someone else might have a better idea. Shame that it was your first all grain as there can be such a build up and expectation. Don't give it up - the results can be superb.

Maybe try changing your sanitiser (or at least varying it). Many people seem to vary their regime a little to keep the bugs on their toes (and away from the brew).

 

[rclemmett]

Have you used the urn for a brew before?

 

[manticle]

As mentioned it was brand new.

 

[fergi]

look you have done the hard work, rather than throw it keep it for a month and give it another try, i had a little creatures clone that i made about a month or more ago, when i first tried it i thought it was infected, just let it sit in the keg for a couple extra weeks and it has surprisingly turned out really nice, i was going to ditch it at first but manticle suggested to hang on to it, did that and turned out great, give it a bit more time, it only takes a couple of minutes later to chuck it but i bet it took you hours to make it,
fergi

 

[matho]

don't tip it at least not all of it, it might be the hops just standing out sometimes it takes a while for them to intergrate.
i remember my first partial i thought i had done something wrong because of a earthy taste turned out to be the hops.
the other day i thought my kolsch had turned sour as two bottles that tasted sour it turned out to be a head cold :lol:
what im saying is don't tip it all, maybe bottle a few and see what it turns out like if it gets more sour the you have an infection if not then you'll be kicking your self for dumping the rest use this as a learning and don't give up.
also do a search for cube bitterness as some no chillers are reporting extra bitterness from no chilling i can't speak as i have only done it once and it wort only had a 60 min addition.

all the best and you'll love AG

cheer's matho

edit: fergi beat me to it

 

[big78sam]

Thanks guys. One more question...

I have my second AG that is in the cube at the moment and I want to bottle. The plan is to put it in the spare fermenter, which had stored the infected brew. My plan is to put some double strength Brewcraft Sterex or sodium dichloro ispcyanurate (whatever that is) overnight and pitch tommorrow. The smack pack has already been smacked and stepped up so is ready to go tomorrow.

If I sanitize the buggery out of everything what is the chance I'll ruin my second AG as well? I've heard that sometimes fermenters need to be ditched if they get a gnarly infection in them. I racked the infected brew into my second fermenter as well so I'm hoping I don't have to ditch them both.

 

[rclemmett]

Thanks guys. One more question...

I have my second AG that is in the cube at the moment and I want to bottle. The plan is to put it in the spare fermenter, which had stored the infected brew. My plan is to put some double strength Brewcraft Sterex or sodium dichloro ispcyanurate (whatever that is) overnight and pitch tommorrow. The smack pack has already been smacked and stepped up so is ready to go tomorrow.

If I sanitize the buggery out of everything what is the chance I'll ruin my second AG as well? I've heard that sometimes fermenters need to be ditched if they get a gnarly infection in them. I racked the infected brew into my second fermenter as well so I'm hoping I don't have to ditch them both.

It should be fine as long as it is cleaned well.... Use a sponge or chux and make sure you don't use anything abrasive as this will scratch the surface and create spots to harbour bacteria. I have had the odd infected brew and have not needed to replace a fermenter, but I have only been brewing for three years.

The flavour could be associated with the urn, as it was its first use... Maybe Manticle could help me out and tell me how you cleaned it prior to use.

 

[fergi]

Thanks guys. One more question...

I have my second AG that is in the cube at the moment and I want to bottle. The plan is to put it in the spare fermenter, which had stored the infected brew. My plan is to put some double strength Brewcraft Sterex or sodium dichloro ispcyanurate (whatever that is) overnight and pitch tommorrow. The smack pack has already been smacked and stepped up so is ready to go tomorrow.

If I sanitize the buggery out of everything what is the chance I'll ruin my second AG as well? I've heard that sometimes fermenters need to be ditched if they get a gnarly infection in them. I racked the infected brew into my second fermenter as well so I'm hoping I don't have to ditch them both.

sam i am not a big fan of persisting with fermenters that have given trouble, it could just be a bug that has got in during fermentation/brewing time, if thats the case i would clean the fermenter with a good strong bleach filled to the top for 24 hours anyway and use it again, if you get two infected brews from the same fermenter in a row ditch the fermenter, its not worth trying to persevere. i guess the only way to really know if it is the fermenter or just being unlucky this time is to clean the fermenter anyway and try again, if it comes out infected chuck the fermenter and buy a new one.use the old fermenter for storing grain in.
cheers
fergi

 

[troopa]

Number one ... CHANGE YOUR TAP .. for about $1 from bunnings go buy a heap of em not even worth cleaning if you think theres an infection in your fermenter
After a brew(If no infections), take the tap out and soak that one and use a different one if your brewing continuously and cant afford the down time
I usually chuck a new tap in the hole throw the old one in the solution with the spoon, cane and hose in the fermenter

if theres no "Spots" left in your ferementer after cleaning (unless you used a harsh scourer) it should be fine after a good soak in any solution
A harsh scourer will scratch the plastic and could allow bacteria to breed

Tom

 

[manticle]

Maybe Manticle could help me out and tell me how you cleaned it prior to use.

?

 

[big78sam]

As the urn was new I just did a couple of test runs and boiled water for an hour in the urn. I figured that it would be sufficient given that the wort boils for more than 60 minutes.

Thanks all for the advice. I'll give everything a good long sanitize and try again. I think I'm not going to take a risk with the AG in the cube. I'll put in a quick K&K and see how it turns out. The wyeast can wait on reflection. I'll just start her up again after I see how the fermenter goes.