Am I Not Understanding Apas Right?

[.DJ.]

I know wikipedia isnt that reliable but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_ale#Definition

A pale ale has two basic characteristics:

It is an ale, that is, fermented using a top-fermenting yeast.
It is pale, that is, generally between 8 and 14 degrees SRM in colour. While this colour is not "pale" compared to, say, a golden ale or Pilsener, the pale malts used in making pale ale at its inception gave the beer a far lighter colour than the porters common in England at the time.

 

[drsmurto]

Hey Bribie, I'd say its a Modern Day CAP with those hops


Style wise acronym (not a brand name acronym like Alpha Pale Ale)
APA = American Pale Ale
IPA = Indian Pale Ale
AIPA = American Indian Pale Ale (American for the hops basically)
IIPA = Imperial Indian Pale Ale

India not indian.

A bit more study required before you sit that BJCP exam......

 

[MarkBastard]

Style wise acronym (not a brand name acronym like Alpha Pale Ale)
APA = American Pale Ale
IPA = Indian Pale Ale
AIPA = American Indian Pale Ale (American for the hops basically)
IIPA = Imperial Indian Pale Ale

APA = american pale ale (ie the seppo version of a standard ale, aussie pale ale, english bitter, etc)
IPA = pommy hops, a bit bigger and hoppier than the standard pale
AIPA = american india pale ale, yank version of the above
then you add an extra 'I' to pretty much any style (only the last two here) to 'imerpialise' it - ie make it stronger and hop the sh!t out of it lol

so Alpha Pale Ale's don't really exist then?

 

[Fourstar]

so Alpha Pale Ale's don't really exist then?

Only for Matilda bay! :lol:

Oh, and 2IPA = IIPA if you where a little confused on that one.

 

[MarkBastard]

Alrighty then.

Would you say that Matilda Bay APA is really an IPA or a IIPA?

 

[Fourstar]

India not indian.
A bit more study required before you sit that BJCP exam......

Ah, whoops!

Yes, because it was made by Indians! What was i thinking! I would be an arse up if i coughed up that during the exam.

 

[Tim]

I think I read somewhere that the Pale basically refers to it being "Paler" (is that a word??) than a dark ale.

So its either "Dark" or "Pale"...

I'll try and find where I read it...

Pale Ale originated from the UK when they started bottle Bitter. Bitter and Pale Ale are basically the same beer. When its on cask its Bitter and when bottled its a Pale Ale. You can get some rather dark looking Pale Ales, and Fuller's describe bottled London Pride and ESB as premium Pale Ales. Garrett Oliver goes into the argument in some detail in the Brewmasters Table.

Also I have found that US brewers use APA and IPA pretty much interchangably, so an AIPA is actually just an APA.

 

[HoppingMad]

Was contemplating this very issue (APAs and hops) when I got my Vic Brew judging sheet back saying my APA was not quite to style.

To make an APA stand out at comp it appears the IBU has to be up there. My beer had all the right characteristics, was clean and fruity but no hop pop that would make an impression with a beer judge, hence it coming middle of the field.

I read the style guidelines, then to make sure I knew what an APA really is I went out on the weekend and bought myself a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale that they have in at Purvis Cellars. Was surprised by it. That stuff is like drinking treesap - really resiny and big on hop, but surprisingly balanced. The crystal malt they use still floats through. If the hops had dominated any more over the malt you would have called it an IPA/AIPA. The balance seems to play a key role here, and is the challenge.

The challenge to create an ale that's not so big on hops it will be mistaken as an AIPA, but big enough for the hops to no longer be subtle. Then you've got something that's on style.

I tend to agree with the consensus on Jamil's recipe too - think those APAs are quite soft on hops, but would make a very nice drinking beer all the same. You would want to up your IBU for comps as it's based on impression B) , not session though.

Hopper.

 

[kevin_smevin]

If you want to brew it to do well in a comp you really need to add loads of late addition hops. I've entered a few APAs in comps, even scored a second place. I've added up to 180g of hops in the last 20 minutes which gave me all the bitterness i needed and loads of flavour/aroma but the judges said it still wasn't enough (aroma, bitterness was fine). Obviously you dont have to brew like this, you can still do your standard 60min addition for bitterness but make sure you add a bucket load at 10, 5 or flame off. I think you'd need a healthy dose of dry hops as well to impress the judges. In terms on commercial beers, an AIPA like Jamiesons Beast or murrays 2IPA would reflect what the judges are after for an APA in a brew comp. Thats from my experience anyway.

 

[Screwtop]

Oh, and 2IPA = IIPA if you where a little confused on that one.

so a Double IPA is an Algebraic Pale Ale :lol:

 

[Effect]

What did you think of the Lobethal APA?

I really enjoyed it, but it's not what I want from an APA. I found that it had the bitterness and the flavour of an apa (i.e. it fits the guidelines), but it doesn't have the hop umph that I desire in my hoppy beers, bitterness is one thing, but dominating hop flavour and aroma is something I long for and the Lobethal APA (even how high I rate it) doesn't do it for me. When I read Jamil's recipe, I imediatelly thought of the Lobethal APA...and that is actually part of why I started this thread, as I was a bit confused. Jamil writes this recipe that contradicts my train of thought but is similar to what I expect the Lobethal APA recipe to be - and the lobethal APA has one a silver...

Thanks for all the feedback + thoughts.

Cheers
Phil

PS: Fourstar, the APA with caramal is quite similar in its hopping schedule, except it subs centennial or cascade for colombus...

 

[craigd]

I'll pipe in as an East Coast American homebrewer. I think if you entered a contest here in the US you would do better with Jamil's recipe on the east coast or midwest and the hoppier version would do well in most of the west coast comps if they didn't say you were out of style. You definitely have to tweak recipes for regional contests here. Around here that second recipe would be an IPA (an easy going IPA, but an IPA.)

There are local differences within the regions too but I would assume that's true everywhere. IPAs rule the roost in the West Coast and do reasonably well on the East Coast but I find that here in Florida maltier styles have a good chance at best of show so that's reflected in the judging of the Pale Ales. Malt forward APAs do pretty well here and those hop bomb APAs tend to overtake the malt. I'm no contest guru but just thought I'd pass on some alternative local perspective.

 

[osanai]

The great thing about homebrew is you don't have to follow style guidelines. If you're just going to make your beers to the way someone else says they should be you might as well just buy it off the shelf

 

[Josh]

Jamil's recipe is very light on the hops and your recipe is much truer to style. What I mean by that is your recipe looks like it would be very likely to earn a medal in a north american competition; Jamil's probably wouldn't.

FYI - Every recipe in BCS has won a medal.

If you're brewing to win medals, then the trick is to brew the best beer. A recipe can only take you so far.

The following recipe won a bronze in the 2009 NSW Homebrew Comp for APA...

23L
6kg Vienna malt
500g Wheat malt
20g Black malt
mash 67C

20g Magnum 12.5% 60mins
40g EK Goldings 4.8% 20mins
40g Rakau 11.5% 10mins
50g Galaxy 15% cube
20g Magnum 12.5% cube

US05

OG 1.058
FG 1.012
5.8% abv

Not your typical APA recipe but a well made hoppy pale ale.

 

[Kai]

I have read zainasheff and palmers' brewing classic styles and had a look at their apas.

I think I may have a different idea as far as recipe formulation. Here is their recipe from his book

For 19 litres

pale 4.94kg
munich 0.34kg
crystal 0.34 kg

68 degree mash

60 min horizon 19g 35 ibu
10 min columbus 7g 3 ibu
10 min centennial 7g 2 ibu
0 min columbus 14g 0ibu
0 min centennial 14g 0ibu



Now for me, that seems like the correct amount of bitterness, but it seems (for me) quite weak on the flavour and aroma. Especially when he says, the keys to brewing american pale ale are fresh ingredients, a balanced recipe, a fair amount of late hops and a clean fermantation featuring neutral ale yeast.

To me that's a great American pale ale recipe. It's simple but effective. I don't think it's too low in late hopping at all, but that doesn't mean you can't double that and still make a great APA.

In regards to competition brewing, I see no reason why you couldn't take out a gong with a recipe like that. APA's don't have to be heavily hopped to be good. For comparison's sake, I had a first place in ANAWBS a few years ago with an APA that had a grand total of 27g of flavour hops. That's over a third less than Jamil's recipe.

 

[Batz]

Style smile

Someone makes a nice beer, then a few people copy that beer, then some one comes along (BJCP Style Guidelines for instance) and puts rules and regulations on what they think that style should be.

Stuff the guidelines I say, but I always have been a non conformist :lol: I brew beer I like not what someone else tells me I should like.

Batz

 

[Kai]

Since you mention it, batz, I should also mention that my aforementioned beer also tasted really good.

 

[Batz]

Since you mention it, batz, I should also mention that my aforementioned beer also tasted really good.

And that's what it all about!

 

[bconnery]

The thing about APAs, BJCP or not, is that they are a wide and varied style, within certain parameters.
Yes they are hop driven, but the levels of this will vary.
Like them hoppy? Bang in those late hops, Hopburst even, whatever you like.
Prefer some nice specialty malt in with those C hops? Do it.
Like a good balance between the two, why not?

Regardless of how you feel about style guidelines, here's the description from one of those which I think illustrates the point.

Flavor: Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties may be used). Low to moderately high clean malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness, but the malt presence can be substantial. Caramel flavors are usually restrained or absent. Fruity esters can be moderate to none. Moderate to high hop bitterness with a medium to dry finish. Hop flavor and bitterness often lingers into the finish. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy notes, although this character should not be excessive.

Now that right there gives a pretty big scope to me even before you start deciding to make a beer that doesn't quite fit these, which is perfectly fine to do.

The key to any good beer is balance in my book. That doesn't mean one aspect can't hit you in the face, that it can't dominate, just that there should be enough behind it to back it up.