Alternatives To Gas Boiled Kettles?

[BoilerBoy]

I looked into this a while back.

We had all our gas lines replaced a few years ago and I got them to put one in for our BBQ, but its still sitting underground waiting for us to decide on our set up.

A gas place, I cant recall there name in Norwood SA told me that the burner like the BBQ will have to have the jets welded and redrilled for a smaller hole and also a different regulator to suit NG mains pressure.

So I am led to believe it can be done and I think someone On this forum on another thread calculated the cost at being around a 1/10th of the price of LPG.

For me this remains probably the last remaining part of Ag brewing where real cost savings can be made.
Bulk buyimg grain and hops is a must but the gas price of around $5 a brew riles me some what

If the 1/10th amount is right it would brimg the cost down to about 50C a brew

Cheers

BB

 

[tangent]

my thoughts exactly BB
i just happen to have some plumbers here right now - asked one "do you do gas fitting as well?"
I'm getting a NG outlet next to the bbq which i'll also use for my kettle - no more bottled gas apart from camping and brewing far from home

the Norwood place is something like Maxibuilt on Beulah Rd Norwood??

edit - also just saw an ad in Origin energy junkmail ~$100 to get your bbq rejetted for NG. I'd save that amount in a year easily.

 

[sah]

I think he means big bottles of LPG (100L) plumbed into the house, which is interesting as I wonder about how much it costs to fill one of these compared to the equivalent in 9kg cylnders??

If your brewing regularly maybe it would pay over time?

anyone?

I'd like to see the comparison here too FHG.

With regard to efficiency of electric elements, I don't think you could get much better. All the heat they produce gets transfered to the wort. The losses are through the sides and top of the kettle. These losses can be reduced by insulated which can be hard to do with gas for fear of catching fire.

It'd be interesting to compare the price per watt of 9kg LPG versus the price per watt from electricity. Anyone up for this one?

I use a NASA turkey fryer from Global Imports in Adelaide. I'm very happy with the speed. They're noisy when at full boar and yes they like the gas. But it is all tolerable.

Scott

 

[BoilerBoy]

G'day tangent!

Yep Maxbuilt was the place,

Thanks

BB

 

[DJR]

I'd like to see the comparison here too FHG.

With regard to efficiency of electric elements, I don't think you could get much better. All the heat they produce gets transfered to the wort. The losses are through the sides and top of the kettle. These losses can be reduced by insulated which can be hard to do with gas for fear of catching fire.

It'd be interesting to compare the price per watt of 9kg LPG versus the price per watt from electricity. Anyone up for this one?

I use a NASA turkey fryer from Global Imports in Adelaide. I'm very happy with the speed. They're noisy when at full boar and yes they like the gas. But it is all tolerable.

Scott

1MJ of gas = approx 0.28kWh. Assuming 9kg bottle refill cost of $18 or $2 per kg, there are 36MJ per kg of LPG, or 10.08kWh per kg. $2 is the cost per kg, divided by 10.08 means that the gas costs are equivalent to $0.20 per kWh. Electricity in Oz usually costs about $0.10 to $0.15 per kWh, so the electric is cheaper.

If you converted to NG it's cheaper again, the gas company charges by the MJ, and they charge about 1-2 cents per MJ. That means that each kWh equivalent of NG would be 1.5cents / 0.28 = approx 5c per kWh, making NG fired kettles the winner (at least in my example).

What is surprising though is how close all the results are, the other thing is that off-peak electricity is much cheaper, about 7c sometimes depending on your provider. Also off peak gas supply can be as little as 0.9cents per MJ or about 3.5c per kWh, so the NG is cheaper in the long run, excluding the difference in heating efficiency of course since gas-fired kettles lose a bit of heat out the sides.

I must be bored waiting for my boil to finish...

 

[sah]

DJR, what a gem post. Thanks for doing the math.

If you factor in efficiency electricity is looking pretty good.

There are of course other considerations too:

- Safety. Both gas and electricity have problems here.
- Noise.
- Portability.
- Cabling and plumbing.
- Sourcing equipment and its cost.
- Equipment longevity and durability.

Scott

 

[justsomeguy]

Based on what DJR wrote I'd have the following:

Assumptions:
My electric system runs 2 elements (1800 and 2400) watt.
All ements runnig for the full brew session (I don't need to)
Total running time of 3 hours (get to strike temp, sparge and 1 hour boil)

I would have used 4.2kWatts for 3 hours = 12.6kWatts.

If we take the worst case price of 15c per kW then a brew session would have cost me $1.89 worst case.

Refilling a 9Kg gas bottle was costing me $25 and I was getting around 5 sessions just boiling, no getting to strike temp, etc so I'd probably get fewer than 5 session from one bottle.

Given $5 in gas per session, paying $1.89, worst case, for electricity is a pretty sweet deal.

Then there is the convenience of setting a timer to heat the water before I get up in the morning....

gary

 

[Fingerlickin_B]

Wow, I didn't realise how cheap the electric option was :super:

Coupled with never having to worry about running out of "gas" (blackouts are pretty rare in Canberra) it certainly looks like I made the best choice.

Oh, and for anyone concerned about the ability to boil large amounts of wort with a 2400w unit like mine...I had a boilover last night and that was 25 litres of wort in a 50 litre vessel :blink: , so I'm guessing I could probably even boil a double batch just with the one element

PZ.

 

[justsomeguy]

Wow, I didn't realise how cheap the electric option was :super:

Coupled with never having to worry about running out of "gas" (blackouts are pretty rare in Canberra) it certainly looks like I made the best choice.

Oh, and for anyone concerned about the ability to boil large amounts of wort with a 2400w unit like mine...I had a boilover last night and that was 25 litres of wort in a 50 litre vessel :blink: , so I'm guessing I could probably even boil a double batch just with the one element

PZ.

I check the times on yesterdays batch and worke dout that I'd have used 6kW of power. So at 15c per kW I'd have used around 90 cents. Gas would have been around $3-4.

I've also boiled over using a 2400watt element. I've actually boiled over using a 1800watt element with 25 litres in a 50 litre kettle. Had the lid on getting the wort up to a boil.

gary

 

[Maxt]

With immersion elements this obviously means you have a power cord dangling around. What do you do with this so it doesn't get in the way?

 

[Fingerlickin_B]

I've been trying to post a pic for you, but the one big and detailed enough to show you is unfortunatley to large to upload

Basically, the power cord goes to an extension lead slung up high over a gutter drain anchoring point, which makes use of Old Man Gravity, who ensures that no spilled wort can travel up to the plug

To be honest, I was initially concerned about electric boiling and only went for it as the bits were easy to get and seemingly cheaper/easier than getting a gas burner, but since receiving and utilising the gear I'm really quite confident and feel safe using this method.

PZ.

 

[hughman666]

i just got off the phone from kleenheat gas who have told me that the cast iron burners aren't approved for use with mains gas. damn.

i'm wondering if i could use the burner to get the boil going and then use an immersion element to keep it rolling....surely that would come out at a reasonable price per brew.

 

[Maxt]

I need to get my 80lt kettle off the stove, I think I am leaning towards the immersion element. Thanks for the info guys.

 

[justsomeguy]

With immersion elements this obviously means you have a power cord dangling around. What do you do with this so it doesn't get in the way?

I'm using two hot water heater elements mounted in the bottom of my kettle. All cords hang dow to stop any wort headaing back up into the connections and the plug are up high to stop wort getting near them.

The only issue I have is when cleaning the kettle out I need to make sure I keep the cords out of the way given they are permanently attached to the kettle. I may chang this to use plugs near the elemts to I don't need to make sure the power leads are out of the way when cleaning everything

gary

 

[kenworthy]

This is my alternative to gas, bit more mucking around but cheaper

 

[agraham]

What I am doing is using the gas stove to heat my mash and sparge water in a 19 litre ss pot. I then use my 4 ring burner to do the boil. You can then then get well over 10 brews per bottle, wich gets you into the 2 dollars per brew region we all like.

Beers,

Andrew

 

[bugwan]

I need to get my 80lt kettle off the stove, I think I am leaning towards the immersion element. Thanks for the info guys.

For what it's worth, I picked up a 2400W immersion heater off eBay last week for $40... They don't come up very often (I was waiting a while), but jump on them when you can. New ones cost over $100 I believe...

 

[justsomeguy]

For what it's worth, I picked up a 2400W immersion heater off eBay last week for $40... They don't come up very often (I was waiting a while), but jump on them when you can. New ones cost over $100 I believe...

Err, nope. not quite.

Stokes Appliances in Ringwood have 2400watt elements for around $75 retail. 1800watt for around $60 each. I got one of each for just over $100 for the pair. I think I got a "brewer's discount' actually. The ones I got were low density 1-1/2 inch screw in hot water heater elements.

gary.

 

[Fingerlickin_B]

Err, nope. not quite.

Stokes Appliances in Ringwood have 2400watt elements for around $75 retail. 1800watt for around $60 each. I got one of each for just over $100 for the pair. I think I got a "brewer's discount' actually. The ones I got were low density 1-1/2 inch screw in hot water heater elements.

gary.

Well, you see I'm pretty sure that's not what Bugwan was talking about...yours are fixtures, but ours have handles

PZ.

 

[DJR]

Tobins sell the 4108B immersion element for $75 new... 2400w, has a handle and everything... Hotco sell a similar one for a wee bit more