All Unhopped Liquid Malt Brewing - Hops Schedule Check

[Fermented]

'Evening All

As we speak, I'm bottling what I hope to be my last can of hopped extract. I grabbed a 28 kg container of Coopers Light Liquid Malt Extract (LLME hereinafter because I'm too lazy to type it time and again) so that I can experiment with hopping schedules.

I've had a play with Beersmith but I'm not sure that it's really the right tool for non-AG work without a fair bit of tinkering, so I'm going to jump in the deep end, but hoping someone can maybe stop me from drowning. Or at least making either sugary / over-bitter cat piss.

My plan is to make an English style Ale, not to any particular BJCP or other 'approved' style, but aiming in that general direction.

Here's the recipe plan:
* 2.7 kg LLME
* 200 g medium crystal steeped for 30 minutes
* 50 g Fuggles @ 60 mins
* 20 g Fuggles @ 30 mins
* 10 g Fuggles @ 15 mins
* 15 g Fuggles @ 0 mins
* Yeast = S-05 cup 'o sludge from a very light Asian brew (the one being bottled, came out like a mild blonde).

Target flavour profile is some bitterness, more-ish taste and pleasant fragrance. Heading for an alcohol content in the mid 4% range, although higher and chewier results are always welcome.

I recognise that S-04 would be better than S-05, but I also would like to try re-using yeasts to help drive my costs lower. Therefore, I'm expecting a slightly dryer finish. If it's a completely stupid idea, then there's a fresh pack of S-04 in the fridge raring to go (and an ever-growing pile of standard issue yeasts).

I have EHG and Fuggles in stock, as well as Hallertauer and Saaz (staple stuff in other words), so substitution / change of plan / style is possible.

Did I guess OK or can you recommend a better way?


Looking forward to your guidance.


Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Pollux]

Just punched the numbers into beersmith so I could get an idea of it..

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 20.00 L
Boil Size: 20.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.040 SG
Estimated Color: 17.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 39.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 0 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.16 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 91.53 %
0.20 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 8.47 %
50.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 28.3 IBU
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 8.7 IBU
10.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 2.8 IBU
15.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (0 min) Hops -

I converted the weight of dry at a rate of 80% by weight.

My advice, I have been told by others while suggesting recipes that fuggles is a bit grassy as an aroma hop.

Upon this advice here's my first extract.....

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 10.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 28.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 28.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
2.00 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 56.34 %
1.00 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 28.17 %
0.20 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 5.63 %
0.05 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (1477.5 EBC) Grain 1.41 %
15.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 3.9 IBU
15.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 4.4 IBU
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
20.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (20 min) Hops 3.5 IBU
15.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.30 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 8.45 %
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale

 

[Bribie G]

Most pom bitters use a mix of hops, don't think too many are single hop nowadays. I would go for the fuggles as flavouring, but try target for bittering and either east kent goldings or styrian goldings for aroma.

Suggest:
30g target 60 mins
40g fuggles 20 mins
20 g EKG 5 mins

And maybe dry hop after 3 days with 15 g EKG pellets.


EKG only available as plugs or pellets at the moment, not flowers

Cheers

Edit: and of course no need to boil the entire malt extract, it's been boiled to buggery at the factory already, maybe add just 300g to 3 L of water for the boil to assist hop efficiency.

 

[Gavo]

I've had a play with Beersmith but I'm not sure that it's really the right tool for non-AG work without a fair bit of tinkering,

Not to hard at all, just add the amount of Malt in two separate additions, one amount to be boiled and the other for add after boil. Check the brewsheet and adjust the amounts until you get your desired preboil gravity. Add grains. Then add hops as per schedule wanted, start with the late additions and adjust the bittering additions as needed to get desired bitterness level. Set it as partial mash.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Gavo.

 

[rough60]

Bribie's recipe looks nice, it sounds like your after a 'best bitter' type ale, I made similar to this ages ago and was liked by my pommie mate.
Cheers.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Boil Size: 26.23 L
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 14.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 27.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.70 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 93.1 %
0.20 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (50.0 EBC) Grain 6.9 %
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 10.5 IBU
20.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.20%] (30 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50%] (20 min) Hops 6.4 IBU
40.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.20%] (5 min) Hops 3.6 IBU

 

[Fermented]

Thanks for the hints fellas!

Am going to have nosh now and then get mit der brew-machen.

Will report back what I did and eventually how it went.

I like Bribie's recipe, but I don't have Target in stock. Why for the sake of God is there no late nite LHBS?

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Fermented]

Sometime around 00:40 this morning it was all done.

I ended up with:

* 2.8 kg LME (poor control of the honey gate; first time user)
* 500 g LDME
* 300g dex
* 15 g Fuggles @ 60
* 15 g EKG @ 60
* 20 g Fuggles @ 20
* 20 g EKG @ 20
* 15 g EKG @ 15
* 500 ml S-05 slurry, pre-fed and watered to 750 ml with 12 g dex @ 22C for 3 hours (foamy!)
* OG = 1052 @ 24C

So, OG is higher than I was planning on which means I will end up with something like 6.13% by my guess. I'll just have to drink it slower on the balcony on a sunny afternoon.

LDME was used for hops extraction. Getting the malt out of the square Coopers tub was interesting even after a 20 minute hot water bath to free it up. It smells amazing - kinda like malt milkshakes at the Odeon in Manly on Friday afternoon when I was kid.

It's kicking off nicely. Positive pressure in the fermenter with condensation and a krausen is forming right on schedule.

I'm keen to try Bribie's recipe next off. Time to order a pile of hops from the sponsors.

Again, thanks to all for the fast guidance and hints. I'm truly appreciative.

Oh, and Gavo, thanks for the hints on Brewsmith. I will take some time to play with it. My comment about it being a little difficult shows my inexperience away from kits.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Pollux]

Sounds tasty.....

Out of interest, how much did you pay for that 28kg of LLME? Sounds interesting.

 

[Fermented]

$140 at Asquith. Mark's a really nice bloke and very helpful, despite not being a sponsor. No affiliation, etc... Most of what he has in stock is pretty plain but he's always willing to special order stuff however, there can be a wait if you want to save $$ and let it come in with his regular orders from the wholesalers. He will get things in on a one-off basis, but the freight, etc will kill the savings, same as any business.

He's just up the road from a mate's place so it's convenient-ish.

I figure that at about $14 per brew for malt and around $12 (at worst retail in 90/100g lots!) for hops, it's still a reasonable saving over kits from LHBS but adds the potential of improving and tuning results while I'm still getting a good feel for the ingredients. Kinda like stepping from Dolmio (gag!) to Italian bottled tomatoes and adding fresh basil, chilli and panacetta for a better sauce.

And yes, I'm sure that it's available cheaper elsewhere. Any hints?

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Fantoman]

Nice work Fermented...

Am currently drinking my first unhopped extract beer, with specialty grain. Definately makes for a better beer and you will find it won't need as much ageing as kit beer. Also opens up a whole world of recipie possibilities...

Am planning a couple more extract brews before making the move to BIAB (while I await SWMBO approval on the purchase of a pot & burner or a 40l Urn).

 

[Fermented]

Thanks, Fanto.

The whole lot was stove top in the pressure cooker (normal boil, not a pressure cooked boil) as my faithful giant stock pot became home to a very tasty master stock a few years ago and I doubt I will get it back before I die. Some master stocks are reputed to be more than a hundred years old, so it's not out of the question in my home (things go slow here mostly).

I wanted a bigger pot, but I think I will continue to push for the new gas cooktop with an even gutsier wok burner as it's quite a bit more $$$ than a pot. Besides, new kitchen implements will doubtless inspire new cooking efforts from both myself and the missus.

EDIT: forgot... faster turnarounds were part of the appeal after reading Butters' "grain to brain in two weeks" statements a few times, hence the choice of English Ale inspired product.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[buttersd70]

I always seem to get the blame... :lol:

Bear in mind that extract won't be quite as quick as far as 'grain to brain' is concerned when compared to a grain brew....it tends to take a little longer for the flavours to settle and mellow. So 2 weeks would be pushing it. A hell of a lot faster for the flavours to condition in right when compared to kits, though.

 

[The Big Burper]

The whole lot was stove top in the pressure cooker (normal boil, not a pressure cooked boil) etc, etc.
Cheers - Fermented.

F,

Funny you mention the pressure cooker, as I was reading in "The Big Book of Brewing" that "hop flavour is extracted more effectively a couple of degrees above boiling point."

I usually boil up my BE2 with extra hops, fridge it, and add to my extra dex and the Morgans can.

So today I did it in the pressure cooker, which brings the liquid to above boiling point,
and did it at 15 psi for 10 minutes, in the hope of extracting more goodies from the
hops. I will make known the results at drinkies time.


cheers
BB

 

[Fermented]

I've been testing my kit results at 1 week, 2 week, 3 week and one month intervals.

At one week, it's pretty ordinary: flavour is OK, obviously very green, SFA head, minor carbonation but still better than quite a few megaswills. At two weeks, much improved and complexity is starting to improve as well as head and carbonation. At a month, they're rather tasty. Am trying to keep a few samples of each to try at three months...

I calculated that to even get to a one month aged drinkable stockpile I will end up with somewhere between 28 and 42 cartons of 12 x 750. Kept that one under my hat especially as SWMBO wasn't impressed at the idea of a dozen cartons on shelves in the laundry.

I still don't understand why some kits and bits are very good at only eight to ten days (and continue to improve) but some are utterly tragic until about a month later. e.g. Heritage Lager, kit yeast, LLME, Wheat DME, 24 g Saaz 15 mins steep = tasty at ten days, but a toucan with better yeast (S-04), crystal malt, etc is rather ordinary until 3 weeks plus despite same temperature and all other variables being quite similar.


The faster turnaround time is only a temporary issue for me. As soon as the stockpile is increased then I can spend more time on more interesting and slower brews and conditioning. Either that or buy beer again (God forbid!)... and I don't think I can do that after tasting 'Platinum Blonde' at a function - tastes like ashtray... just hot and dirty (and this from a smoker!).

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[The Big Burper]

SNAP

 

[staggalee]

$140 at Asquith

And yes, I'm sure that it's available cheaper elsewhere. Any hints?

Cheers - Fermented.

$115 at Ibrew.
Good price but not near you. Might be handy for someone else tho.

stagga.

 

[Fermented]

In another thread I mentioned extracting hops in an espresso machine (proper group handle, xx bar pressure, etc). I've been waiting for parts for my machine (should be here in a week or two, they tell me) so that I can try it. If the parts don't come in soon I will run the test in a moka, just for the heck of it.

I'm keen to know about how your pressure cooker brew turns out. Could be very interesting... [gears grinding in my mind over pressure and temperature combinations for extraction of certain properties of plant matter...]... interesting... I wonder what the evaporation point of the relevant acids and other volatiles in hops is?

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Fermented]

$115 at Ibrew.
Good price but not near you. Might be handy for someone else tho.

Good savings, but a wee drive for me.

Cheers - Fermented.