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Yeah but some people aren't into this as a serious hobby, they're in it to have fun and make a cheap beer.

Then they start looking into how to make that beer taste better. Their can opener works fine - they don't want to get all the bells and whistles. And they certainly don't want to be looked down upon by an AG Elitist.

Yeah AG is easy... but you should've seen me getting led through my first AG day.... stressed out... "is it ready to mash yet?" questions.

You get into the serious stuff at your own leisure, as with any hobby/obsession.


This is my whole point thought Pete.

AG IS fun and you CAN make cheap, great tasting beer.
There doesen't have to be any bells and whistles. my first AG I did alone and after having never attended anyone elses brewday.
Don't ask me what my efficiency was or any of my gravitys, I just made beer, and had a heap of fun.
It wasn't my best AG ever, but it was still much nicer than my K&K's

I'm no AG Elitist, definately an advocate though. And I'm happy to hammer home the fact that AG brewing is no harder than Extract brewing.

How is AG any more serious or stressful than opening a can?

Pete, AG is Just as easy as extract brewing. The trick is not to fall victim to the stigma that it's ONLY for Elite brewers.
 
This is my whole point thought Pete.

AG IS fun and you CAN make cheap, great tasting beer.
There doesen't have to be any bells and whistles. my first AG I did alone and after having never attended anyone elses brewday.
Don't ask me what my efficiency was or any of my gravitys, I just made beer, and had a heap of fun.
It wasn't my best AG ever, but it was still much nicer than my K&K's

I'm no AG Elitist, definately an advocate though. And I'm happy to hammer home the fact that AG brewing is no harder than Extract brewing.

How is AG any more serious or stressful than opening a can?

Pete, AG is Just as easy as extract brewing. The trick is not to fall victim to the stigma that it's ONLY for Elite brewers.
Good call. I do enjoy my AG days - cleaning up and dealing with the wife is the main pain. We all know it. ;)
My first partial (Altbier) was awesome.
My first AG (ESB) was a phenolic mess. Such a shame, but it was fun making it.

I just think if someone's asking a question about their kits, it can't help too much by saying they should be doing AG instead. It's not what they're asking.
Not out to keep the arguement going again by all means. 5 pages on... sheesh.
Anyway. best of luck to Banjo.
 
WOW!

This thread has entertained me for about 1 hour, I have to post something after all the effort I put into reading it. Pop corn pic was great lol.

Sometimes brewers will scare the **** of newbies bit like what happened the first time I posted on this forum. It took me awhile to realise most people are just having a bit of fun, especially after I flamed someone I thought was taking
the piss out of someone else and then realised I was drunk and they where actually asking a valid question.

I only just moved to BIAB after brewing kits for years, I dont think I will brew a kit again but if time becomes an issue and I want cheap beer that can taste better than some mass produced commercial beers I probably will.

As with anything you get what you put into it I guess, and learning good sanitisation and fremention practices is crucial and thats the first thing I learnt from trial and error temp control is king.
 
The Golden Ale was my favourite kit beer. It became an AG recipe but started out life as a kit recipe. I made a few changes to it in the kit days by steeping crystal, switching to US05 and really enjoyed it.

The kit recipe was added so that all forms of brewers could brew it and make something that i think tastes very nice. I would go so far as to say that a significant number of the 105 votes it has are due to kit brewers who made the kit version.

Is the AG version better, yes. Is the kit version ****, not by a long stretch.

I've judged the last few state brewing titles and tasted some very good kit beers that i scored quite highly, not a hint of twang to be detected.

I get sent/given Golden ales to taste on a regular basis, most AG but also a few kits. The worse one i have ever tasted was an AG, not a kit.

Telling a kit brewer his beers will be **** unless he ditches the can opener is not only extremely unhelpful it's also wrong.

Whilst i am an AG brewer I don't forget i was once a kit brewer and made very nice beer. I actually 'won' the Gawler Show homebrew competition in 2007 with a kit beer (an LCPA 'clone') beating out several AG beers. By won i mean best beer of the show (scored 45/50, only 1 less point than the AG golden ale scored in 2008 to win the beer of show at ANAWBS) and yes, it did piss a few people off when they found out it was a kit beer. The judges were amazed.

Cheers
DrSmurto - an award winning kit brewer! :chug:
 
DrS's post proves that the biggest variable, when comparing kit to AG is the brewer.

Therefore, if the brewer knows what he is doing on both accounts - then his AG brew will be better than his extract brew.

But a good extract brewer can (and will in some instances) beat an average AG brewer.

My worst 2 brews have been AG. They'd rate well below my worst 2 kit brews. The problem was the brewer (and specifically, lack of temp control exercised by said brewer).

But my best 2 AG brews defecate all over my best 2 kit brews.

The other brewer related variable is that an AG brewer (at least after his first couple of attempts) generally knows more detail about the process, than a kit brewer (why a mash works, how hops isometerize).

I feel (and I may be wrong) that this is, in part, because the process requires the knowledge, but more importantly, the decision (if well researched and considered) to go AG, means that a brewer accepts the time factor as being increased - namely, this is now a hobby (or obsession).

Because they accept the time factor - that is they are no longer brewing because it is a cheap and cheerful (convenient, time efficient) way to brew beer - they will take the extra care and do the extra research needed to produce a finer beer.

They've also accepted that a partial mash, extra hopping, etc that you need to trick up a kit beer to be a better beer takes as much time as AG, therefore, they are at the stage where quality is the zenith, not time & cost.

A brewer that sticks with kit brewing does so as a fear or time factor. They've made a trade-off that they are prepared to live with - that is, time (brewing and researching the actual process of brewing) and perceived cost (it's cheap!) vs quality (you need to research to get it) and perceived cost (isn't AG expensive to get into?).

Additionally, AG brewers' bad beers are generally 1. Because they are too experimental or 2. Lack of control over the same elements that can cause a kit brew to go bung (temp control, yeast handling, etc). It has proved the case with my poorer AG brews.

So my understanding of why kit beers are, as a rule, far worse (rather than a little worse) than AG beers is not the ingredients, but the brewer - and more importantly his mentality, reasons for brewing and probably his skills. Yes, fresh AG ingredients are better than kit - there's no doubt about it. However, an extract brewer with control over his processes will produce a better beer than an AG brewer that doesn't.

But, as a rule, an AG brewer will generally have a better process understanding (due to a desire to increase his knowledge in order to control that process) - it's the minority of AG brewers who go in blind.

Yes, there are idiots and incompetants on both sides of the fence, but those excepted, an AG brewer will accept time, quality control and end result as the fundamentals of his brewing, whereas the extract/kit brewer will accept cost and ease of execution as the fundamentals of his brewing. A kit/extract brewer that starts to see quality and end result as the fundamentals of his brewing, will inevitably move to AG brewing, because (as happened to me) the time to produce a good kit beer is the same as AG (and IMO - costs more), AHB exists as a font of knowledge to get into cheap AG brewing, so why not try it out? I did, it's why I kicked 11 years of kit/extract 2 years ago, and plan never to go back.
 
A brewer that sticks with kit brewing does so as a fear or time factor. They've made a trade-off that they are prepared to live with - that is, time (brewing and researching the actual process of brewing) and perceived cost (it's cheap!) vs quality (you need to research to get it) and perceived cost (isn't AG expensive to get into?).

I have also enjoyed reading this thread for education/entertainment/enlightenment etc...however I just wanted to throw my 2 cents at the above sentence in your post...no dig intended, but I dont agree with what you have stated at all.

A brewer that sticks with kit brewing does not necessarily do so as a fear or time factor. It is personal preference in some instances, just like how I love Hopped up ales, but dont like 'wheat beers' all that much...personal preference.

My brother in law will never go past kits, but its because he likes the taste and is happy with the fact he has brewed his own beer he can happily sit down and drink day in and day out. His personal preference.

I on the other hand, dont particularly like his brews, I am in the steps heading towards BIAB and one day want to be full AG with a mint set up.
...But he has tried some of my extract brews that I and others love and he doesnt like them at all, will turn his nose up at one in favour of his kit draught.

This is life. Its the way it will always be.

Cheers and happy brewing to all, whether it be kit or AG...
 
Sorry, i fell asleep somewhere along the way when someone took a can opener to their spleen and let it dribble all over the internet.

There was a pretty succinct question at the start, did we ever get a succinct answer?
 
DrS's post proves that the biggest variable, when comparing kit to AG is the brewer.

Therefore, if the brewer knows what he is doing on both accounts - then his AG brew will be better than his extract brew.

But a good extract brewer can (and will in some instances) beat an average AG brewer.

My worst 2 brews have been AG. They'd rate well below my worst 2 kit brews. The problem was the brewer (and specifically, lack of temp control exercised by said brewer).

But my best 2 AG brews defecate all over my best 2 kit brews.

The other brewer related variable is that an AG brewer (at least after his first couple of attempts) generally knows more detail about the process, than a kit brewer (why a mash works, how hops isometerize).

I feel (and I may be wrong) that this is, in part, because the process requires the knowledge, but more importantly, the decision (if well researched and considered) to go AG, means that a brewer accepts the time factor as being increased - namely, this is now a hobby (or obsession).

Because they accept the time factor - that is they are no longer brewing because it is a cheap and cheerful (convenient, time efficient) way to brew beer - they will take the extra care and do the extra research needed to produce a finer beer.

They've also accepted that a partial mash, extra hopping, etc that you need to trick up a kit beer to be a better beer takes as much time as AG, therefore, they are at the stage where quality is the zenith, not time & cost.

A brewer that sticks with kit brewing does so as a fear or time factor. They've made a trade-off that they are prepared to live with - that is, time (brewing and researching the actual process of brewing) and perceived cost (it's cheap!) vs quality (you need to research to get it) and perceived cost (isn't AG expensive to get into?).

Additionally, AG brewers' bad beers are generally 1. Because they are too experimental or 2. Lack of control over the same elements that can cause a kit brew to go bung (temp control, yeast handling, etc). It has proved the case with my poorer AG brews.

So my understanding of why kit beers are, as a rule, far worse (rather than a little worse) than AG beers is not the ingredients, but the brewer - and more importantly his mentality, reasons for brewing and probably his skills. Yes, fresh AG ingredients are better than kit - there's no doubt about it. However, an extract brewer with control over his processes will produce a better beer than an AG brewer that doesn't.

But, as a rule, an AG brewer will generally have a better process understanding (due to a desire to increase his knowledge in order to control that process) - it's the minority of AG brewers who go in blind.

Yes, there are idiots and incompetants on both sides of the fence, but those excepted, an AG brewer will accept time, quality control and end result as the fundamentals of his brewing, whereas the extract/kit brewer will accept cost and ease of execution as the fundamentals of his brewing. A kit/extract brewer that starts to see quality and end result as the fundamentals of his brewing, will inevitably move to AG brewing, because (as happened to me) the time to produce a good kit beer is the same as AG (and IMO - costs more), AHB exists as a font of knowledge to get into cheap AG brewing, so why not try it out? I did, it's why I kicked 11 years of kit/extract 2 years ago, and plan never to go back.

Hear, hear! I agree with all above.
 
And all the people who say this are Extract brewers.
I don't know of ONE person, not ONE, that has made an all grain beer and said to themselves; "taste's like ****, im going back to cans".

But I do know people who've made a few all-grain beers and then gone back to kits + bits, because they don't believe the time and feffing around is worth it
 
The best analogy I can come up with for extract beers versus all grain is 'orange cordial versus fresh orange juice'. Sure the cordial is drinkable and cheap but the fresh juice is a hell of a lot nicer and worth the extra effort to squeeze yourself.

I prefer condensed milk vs fresh milk
 
I prefer condensed milk vs fresh milk

Some always will. Same as:

McDonalds vs fresh corner shop ingredients
Packet Pasta vs fresh pasta
Instant Coffee vs barista served coffee

Most of the time (99.999% of the time), it still comes down to a cost/time vs quality - and people will settle for instant, or McDonalds because they are happy with how it tastes for the time/money/effort. I know it sounds like I'm contradicting my earlier post (only slightly), but I stand by the fact that 99.999% of people do the same. The other .001% are those like Salt's mates. They prefer average quality beer, and yet I'd still argue that if homebrewing (kits) cost more or took more effort, then he'd go back to megaswill. So it still comes down to a time vs cost vs quality argument

Goomba
 
consdensed milk is so good! :icon_drool2: on freshly baked bread!

also great in strong tea, makes great caramel.
 
consdensed milk is so good! :icon_drool2: on freshly baked bread!

also great in strong tea, makes great caramel.

It is good. When I was a kid and mum made caramel tarts, she'd buy a second tub, use half and I'd be eating the other half. mmmmm.......

But I wouldn't substitute it for regular milk in tea. And you ask my kids, they all notice the difference if I give them UHT milk, instead of fresh.

Goomba
 
I will never get my lunch hour back... I'll never see that time again... and wasnt even amused, just alot of self righteous bile IMO... Gorden Bennet...

I had a listen to the BN KIT BEER show again today after what was a poor excuse for a lunch hour and Mr P and Mr Z debunk a great deal of the terrible, terrible, poo pooing goin on here. (By Select members)

@ the OP give this a listen mate, it covers a great deal of what you need to hear (mostly already covered by helpful people here but very good none-the-less)

@ Fingers give this a listen, it covers a great deal of what you need to hear especialy the bit about not overwhelming newbs with stuff they dont need to know. And why.

Ive never professed to doing an AG Yet.. after 27 brews I feel Im 'almost' ready for the step having FIRST nailed down procedure, equipment, Yeast management, temps, etc, etc, Without correct procedure and understanding it doesnt make a spuds worth of difference wether its Kits and Bits, Extract or AG..

Ive never read a bigger load of bile here... well except for that time when Spee.... not even goin there

gods <_<

[edit] Have a look and listen through the shows in this LINK (Brew Strong Link) Ive personally found it very informative and helpful. Gods Ive listened to most of em multiple times :ph34r:
 
But I do know people who've made a few all-grain beers and then gone back to kits + bits, because they don't believe the time and feffing around is worth it

I have considered going back to doing a few kit or extract brews as I was able to make consistently good beer. Since going to AG and 3v set up I've made great beer but also stuff I'm not too happy with. With AG it's a lot easier to make a really great beer as it is to make a really bad beer as the brewer has control over everything. We've just done a kit only comp with the west coast brewers and all the entries were great (except for mine), a previous comp which was AG and the results were all over the place.

Taking half a day for AG compared to a few hours for kit/extract just makes things all the worse when the AG brew comes out disappointing.

Banjo,

A few of the things I did to improve my brews
- temp control of the ferment and letting it sit in the fermenter a few days after to rest and clear
- better yeast than under the lid which suits the style you are brewing (doesn't mean you have to go to liquid yeast)
- steeping grains and adding hops really made a great improvement over the kit brews
- using more malt extract rather than dextrose or brew enhancers to help with the body

One other thing was I used software to help understand what OG and FG, I found that using the kit instructions and doing 23L it's come out as a mid strength beer and be fairly watery, bumping up the malt extract gave the body and alc content I wanted.
 
We've just done a kit only comp with the west coast brewers and all the entries were great (except for mine), a previous comp which was AG and the results were all over the place.


The great cdbrown putting up a bad beer?!? I dont believe it.
 
Let's be honest - he derailed the thread, but it takes more than one to assist him. *puts hand up*

We all took the bait.

But, realistically, @OP got his answer in the first half dozen threads, so all we've done is take up unnecessary server space on AHB server. It won't be that much, and nothing has got anywhere near as vitriolic as 1. Most derailed threads or 2. AG vs Kit/Extract threads.

I think, for the most part, the arguments have been at least informative and not too nasty. I like reading both points of view, given I K&K for so long, now AG.

Goomba
 
Congratulations Beerfingers; you turned an honest question into a self-indulgent crap-fest.
 
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