All grain quality from extract beer?

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Absolutely untrue on the stepping there. Your entire position is incorrect. Even the simplest of AG setups has vastly more control over the fermentability of wort than any extract method.

the man is 100% correct.

A single infusion mash schedule on BIAB is the same as ghetto, the same as 3V - assuming brewer skill is the same.

I strongly refute the suggestion that BIAB is inferior beer to 3V beer otherwise brewed under the same conditions.

Some members have been doing stepped mashes, hochhurz and decoction mashes on the stove (I have) and BIAB.

 

[QldKev]

As someones who BIAB'd for years, and now has a 3V and a 1V setup, I agree with LRG. All systems can make excellent beer in the hands of a good brewer. I've only moved from BIAB as I find stepped mashes easier on a system with recirculation; not better just easier.

 

[Adr_0]

Sure, you can't do a 5 step mash schedule or a continuous ramp with extract brewing but you can't with an Esky either.

Sure you can... I did 5-step infusion mash (acid, protein, beta, alpha, mash out) on a hefeweizen with very limited recirc capability. While the beer was delicious, my hair did suffer: I went from Fabio to Smeagol in just two hours...

 

[Bribie G]

Stepping is actually the "default" for BIAB because, assuming you are going to take the entire wort volume up to the boil, you may as well do that in steps during the mashing then hoist the bag once mashout has been accomplished. In other words the step mash comes "for free". On topic, who knows what they mash the malt at when they are making extract, could be a twenty minute mash at 72 degrees for all we know. The kits seem to attenuate extremely low so I guess their mash is different to say Wander liquid malt. Either way you take pot luck.

 

[verysupple]

Absolutely untrue on the stepping there. Your entire position is incorrect. Even the simplest of AG setups has vastly more control over the fermentability of wort than any extract method.

Firstly, I don't think I made my point very clear. My point was that, yes, you have more control with AG but different systems allow different levels of control. So couldn't extract be considered only slightly less control than a somewhat limiting AG setup? You can adjust the fermentatbility of extract brews with things like dextrose and maltodextrin.

Secondly, sure, you could do a 5 step mash in an Esky if it was big enough and you started with a really thick mash and ended up with a really, really thin mash, but most people probably wouldn't bother.

And thirdly, how is my entire position incorrect? Are you saying it's impossible to make a great extract beer? To reiterate my original point, you probably can't make an award winning beer of every style with extract but that doesn't mean you can't make any great beer.

 

[verysupple]

the man is 100% correct.

A single infusion mash schedule on BIAB is the same as ghetto, the same as 3V - assuming brewer skill is the same.

I strongly refute the suggestion that BIAB is inferior beer to 3V beer otherwise brewed under the same conditions.

Some members have been doing stepped mashes, hochhurz and decoction mashes on the stove (I have) and BIAB.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that any AG method was superior or inferior, just that they're different. For a single infusion they're probably pretty much the same except for lautering efficiency and stuff like that.

And for the record I do stepped mashes on my stove in a sort of maxiBIAB method.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Point 1 and 2 contradict each other.

AG systems don't offer different levels of control but different levels of ease to produce wort.

and point 3, I said you can make very good beer with extract in an earlier post.

With regard to altering fermentation ability, maltose and dextrose are poor imitation alternatives to a proper temp controlled mash, hands down.

 

[carniebrew]

It's hard to stick to the question here as there's always so much emotion on the subject. But there's plenty of examples of excellent extract beers out there that show it can be done. Given the issues around extract age/quality it's likely you'll make better beer more often using all grain, but the simple fact is that extract can make great beer.

I only have to go back to my first ever (at home) full extract brew, a DSGA, using a can of Coopers light LME, a can of Coopers wheat LME and 250gm crystal....all done in an 8 litre boil with late extract addition (fermented at 18C with US-05). It got 38/50 from one of the judges in the big Vic comp I put it in (late 2012, I can't recall the name of the comp). None of the three judges said anything about twang or using extract. Has anyone made an all grain pale ale that's scored less than 38 out of 50? If so, then I guess you can say you can make "all grain quality" beer with extract.

EDIT: For clarity for anyone reading this thread later, I finally recalled the name of the compmaster website...it was actually Beerfest 2013 I entered my extract DSGA into, and it got 36/50 from one judge, not 38. Interestingly that judge gave it a 17/20 in the "Flavour" section with comments such as "Well balanced, clean, hoppy". The other judges scored it 33 and 29 respectively (but of course I only believe the 36 guy!)

 

[verysupple]

Point 1 and 2 contradict each other.

AG systems don't offer different levels of control but different levels of ease to produce wort.

and point 3, I said you can make very good beer with extract in an earlier post.

With regard to altering fermentation ability, maltose and dextrose are poor imitation alternatives to a proper temp controlled mash, hands down.

Hey, nobody said it was ideal, but I don't see how it's any different to using a bit of carapils in an AG batch to get the mouth feel and body you want. As you said, a good temp controlled mash should give you that. Why is carapils accepted and additives that do the same thing aren't?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Carapils is a core ingredient. Dextrose is an adjunct.

And with AG there are more ways to get body than Carapils. High temperature mashes,the grist makeup, stepped mashes etc.


Without sounding disparaging, using Carapils as an example indicates a level of inexperience. Maybe have a go at AG for a while with good recipe then post back.

 

[bum]

So couldn't extract be considered only slightly less control than a somewhat limiting AG setup?

No, you have almost zero control over the fermentability of the extract (you could change this by using dry enzyme, of course, but yuck).

You can adjust the fermentatbility of extract brews with things like dextrose and maltodextrin.

And pitch/aeration rates as well but these apply equally to AG brews (unless we want to start the old (and, thankfully, long absent) argument about adjuncts preventing a beer from being AG).

Secondly, sure, you could do a 5 step mash in an Esky if it was big enough and you started with a really thick mash and ended up with a really, really thin mash, but most people probably wouldn't bother.

You said it couldn't be done and went on to frame that as your reasoning that extract is essentially the same as non-automated AG. This position is patently false and is the point I disputed.

Are you saying it's impossible to make a great extract beer?

Where did I say anything that even remotely points towards this? You can even quote other threads if you like.

 

[verysupple]

Carapils is a core ingredient. Dextrose is an adjunct.

And with AG there are more ways to get body than Carapils. High temperature mashes,the grist makeup, stepped mashes etc.


Without sounding disparaging, using Carapils as an example indicates a level of inexperience. Maybe have a go at AG for a while with good recipe then post back.

Well I've been put in my place. I guess all that experience and AG batches I brewed "with good recipes" were a waste of time because I thought that a malt that increases body, mouthfeel and head retention without adding colour or flavour was analagous to an adjunct that does the exact same thing.

Anyway, we're straying a bit OT. Control of the processes isn't the issue here and I'll always believe it's possible to get "AG quality from exctract beer" (whatever that means, as I think Carnie pointed out right near the start of the thread) and others will always disagree. That's the last from me in this thread.

 

[Adr_0]

It's hard to stick to the question here as there's always so much emotion on the subject. But there's plenty of examples of excellent extract beers out there that show it can be done. Given the issues around extract age/quality it's likely you'll make better beer more often using all grain, but the simple fact is that extract can make great beer.

I only have to go back to my first ever (at home) full extract brew, a DSGA, using a can of Coopers light LME, a can of Coopers wheat LME and 250gm crystal....all done in an 8 litre boil with late extract addition (fermented at 18C with US-05). It got 38/50 from one of the judges in the big Vic comp I put it in (late 2012, I can't recall the name of the comp). None of the three judges said anything about twang or using extract. Has anyone made an all grain pale ale that's scored less than 38 out of 50? If so, then I guess you can say you can make "all grain quality" beer with extract.

And interestingly on this, I had a Bohemian pils in the last QABC that got something like 19 or 20. It was marked down because:
- I didn't de-chlorinate my water and used bleach in a secondary without rinsing adequately; and
- I only boiled for 75min and didn't cool fast enough (water bath - usually I would have a hand with 2 x immersion chillers; now I have a plate chiller)

In other words, chlorophenols and DMS.

The recipe was absolutely beautiful and it was well mashed and well fermented, but these problems will get you whether you Brau in your Meister or do K&K.

 

[Parks]

And interestingly on this, I had a Bohemian pils in the last QABC that got something like 19 or 20. It was marked down because:
- I didn't de-chlorinate my water and used bleach in a secondary without rinsing adequately; and
- I only boiled for 75min and didn't cool fast enough (water bath - usually I would have a hand with 2 x immersion chillers; now I have a plate chiller)

In other words, chlorophenols and DMS.

The recipe was absolutely beautiful and it was well mashed and well fermented, but these problems will get you whether you Brau in your Meister or do K&K.

I believe chlorophenols will only affect mash brewers and these get really nasty. I had to tip an English IPA that I ruined by not de-chlorinating. There is a lot of conflicting argument whether or not fast chilling causes DMS too.

DMS also shouldn't affect extract brewers as it's mainly in the wort production step.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

No one has put you in your place and I'm sorry if it appears that way.

I think I and a number of brewers took exception to the comment that you can't get AG flexibility without 3V.

I've held that very good beers can be made with extract.

 

[Adr_0]

I believe chlorophenols will only affect mash brewers and these get really nasty. I had to tip an English IPA that I ruined by not de-chlorinating. There is a lot of conflicting argument whether or not fast chilling causes DMS too.

DMS also shouldn't affect extract brewers as it's mainly in the wort production step.

You're right, DMS won't be in extract beers at all. From what I read, a decent boil solves 90% of hte problem and I didn't do this. A boil of 90 or 120min gets your precursor (can't remember what it is... DSS?) down to basically nothing. This must be the case, otherwise our no-chilling friends would be cooking vegies each time they crack a beer, right? I think I unfortunately did both: a short boil (leaving some precursor there) and a slow chill, allowing it to convert to DMS.

Chlorophenols can still be an issue with fermentation, regardless of how you got your wort - particularly using bleach. Cl likes to bond to stuff, whether it's in the mash or to products of yeast.

I guess my - absent, or pooly made at best - point was that your processes have a massive impact on your beer, even if you make delicious wort. And I guess if these problems are exclusive to - or primarily associated with - AG, then that is something to consider if anyone wants to switch. Definitely not the magic pill, but does open you up to some amazing beers if you do it well.

 

[verysupple]

I know I said I was done for this topic...

No hard feelings.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't make my point very well. I never meant 3V allowed more control or anything like that. I only meant that there are many ways to get the job done.

I believe chlorophenols will only affect mash brewers and these get really nasty.

I hope this isn't getting too far OT but that's an interesting comment. I thought chorophenols were produced either by the yeast doing some biochem mumbo jumbo with the chlorine or a reaction between the chlorine and a yeast byproduct. I can't remember where I think I read that so maybe it's wrong. If this is the case then it would also affect extract brews.

Do you have a linky or care to elaborate?

EDIT: Wow it took me so long to type my post that Adr_0 already sort of covered it.

 

[Parks]

I hope this isn't getting too far OT but that's an interesting comment. I thought chorophenols were produced either by the yeast doing some biochem mumbo jumbo with the chlorine or a reaction between the chlorine and a yeast byproduct. I can't remember where I think I read that so maybe it's wrong. If this is the case then it would also affect extract brews.

Do you have a linky or care to elaborate?

EDIT: Wow it took me so long to type my post that Adr_0 already sort of covered it.

I will see what I can find. Thinking about it now it could be the fact you will boil off the chlorine and chloramine over a 60min boil thus leaving none to ferment. Will check up on that.

 

[fletcher]

i don't think it can be done from kits/canned worts. dry extract yes, and i've had a lot of lovely extract beers from fellow brewers and made a few myself, but metallic kits and bits, no. too much of that twang. i've yet to make or drink a decent tin beer. i'd love to be corrected though; perhaps it comes down the brewer and their experiences. in my opinion, all the 'masking and hiding' by steeping, boiling, hop adding etc is only a stone's throw from AG anyway. it's basically admitting that AG is a better product.

 

[unclebarrel]

I am an extract brewer, at the moment. AG is something I will do given more time, money and space to stretch out and have a good brew area.

I brew what I claim is decent quality extract brews.
However, just the other day I drank one of my fave pale ales that I have brewed (US style) back to back with a TT landlord done in BIAB on a brew day with mates.
The landlord, all be it a different style to what I had brewed with extract, was definitely of a higher quality.
Don't get me wrong, I really like drinking my brews, but I find AG brews to have better mouthfeel and depth of flavour.

That's my view anyway.
I'm not as experienced in brewing as many here, but I know when I am drinking something of good quality.
To go back to what Bribie G said, it's kind if like instant coffe.
Good point.

UB