Ale V Lager

[lastdrinks]

How hard is it to brew a great lager compared to a great ale? To me the lager seems harder. Just started brewing largers and difficult.


I really want to brew a nice malty lager as a dependible house brew but the first few have been ok but not great. Lagering time, less flavour to hide behind. So what are some tips that made your lagers good.

 

[marksfish]

pitch cold and pitch a heap of yeast.

 

[bignath]

yeah i also find lagers much more difficult.

In my opinion, lagers are much more complicated because there is less to hide behind. Anyone can make a base beer, throw a shedload of hops at it and call it an APA/IPA, but to brew a clean, balanced lager, with no diacetyl, no overpowering hops etc shows great control over all aspects of brewing.

Wish i could consistently churn 'em out, but for me it's been hit and miss. Have made some superb ones, but had my fair share of shit too.

 

[Bribie G]

I think this is why the Craft Brewing movement seems to brew mostly ales for the reason that Big Nath posted - Dead easy for them to knock up a 50 IBU orange coloured chill hazed ale and give it a silly name like "Old Grandpa's Left Slipper" and have it on the bar in 10 days.

On a recent tour I had a very nice Balmain Lager (don't hear too much about this mob) and a Jame Squire Sundowner and that was about it for the lagers. The Murrays Pilsner was way over hopped and out of balance and the rest of the offerings were ales - don't get me wrong I love their Whale Ale.

In Sydney at the couple of pubs I visited it was nearly all variations on APAs and even at the Lord Nelson they had completely chucked in the towel and their lager offering was German Paulaner
In fact apart from the German beers I drank at the Bavarian Bier Cafe and at Lowenbrau, the pick of the lagers on the trip would have to be Kirin First Press

For my house beer I do a lagerish ale along the lines of a UK "modern summer ale" which is a bit more fruity and hoppy, but hits the same spot as a 5.2% strong lager on a summers day. I use Bairds Perle malt, a touch of Caramalt, maize and some maltose syrup, bitter to around 30 IBU with Styrians in the finish and use 1469 (Irish Ale would be a good choice for less fruityness).



Ferment cool for about 10 days, "lager" for 10 days and serve cold on tap.

 

[bear09]

Hi All,

OKm if we are going to talk lagers I have one really important question that has been bugging me for ages and its about cooling...

I am a 3v AG brewer and have only brewed ales (about 20). I am at a point now where I want to give lager a go. I have a stir plate and several flasks. I have a fridge and heat pad with an STC 1000 so I can control fermentation temps perfectly.

When I cool my wort I use an immersion chiller. I can drop 25L of wort from 100 degs to 20 degs in 15 mins (I stir constantly for this whole period) using about 90L of water which I recycle for cleaning and the next brew ect. I cant get my wort much below 20 degs. For a lager I read that they usually ferment around the 10 degs mark. How the heck do people get their wort that cool? Its always intrigued me.

Cheers.

 

[raven19]

For me its the exact same process as an ale, except a larger pitch of yeast and twice the time to ferment, then longer to condition it either in secondary or in a keg at the back of the fridge.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Bear09 - Stick in the fridge and dont pitch till its a degree or so cooler than the temp you want to ferment at - chuck a shitload (no, however much you are thinking... More than that) of yeast at it.

Make sure you are on top of your sanitation and you should have no problems with waiting till the wort is cold enough.

OR - you can tit fart about with circulating ice water through your chiller, using pre-chillers etc - OR - as i do, you can no-chill and after it cooled to ambient, stick your cube in the fridge till its cold enough. No different from the firsr option, but basically no increased risk of infection. I actually chill my wort till its significantly colder than my needed temp, so I can aerate cold, which allows more gas to dissolve, let it warm up to the required temp. Then as the wort warms up I know its at saturation point or above for its temp.

Lagers aren't "harder" than ales, they just need more stuff. Assuming you are talking about consistently making high quality lagers rather than trying to pop out a decent psuedo version every now and again.

You need good fermentation temp control
You need to be able to make big arsed yeast starters (or be happy with dried yeast)
You need the fermentation space to give them the time they need.

Apart from that, they are no harder to make than ales with comparable malt and/or hop bills.

Is it harder to make a simple, delicately flavoured beer that relies on balance and subtlety to make it enjoyable - than it is to just make something that punches you in the face with flavour? i think it is, but the same applies to both lagers and ales.

 

[argon]

@bear09 have a look into pre chillers for your immersion chiller. Or, as i do, no chill. Then when the cube is at ambient, chuck it into the fridge at desired ferment temp over night. Then you're confident you're pitching at the right temp.

I have 3 lagers lagering at the moment. I usually only do a single run each year at the run up to Oktoberfest for when i have friends and family over and knock back big steins east german food and listen to oompa music. This year, i have a much better understanding of my yeast handling, and from the latest samples my lagers have all come out quite clean, with perhaps just a touch of diacetyl in my Bo Pils (which is not totally out of style).

Last year i was getting abit of Acetaldehyde in my German pils, but not in my Munich Helles. I tracked this back to underpitching. I was using s189 in both, but did the old sprinkle 2 packs on the surface of the Ger Pils and repitched slurry to the Helles. So with further understanding i was underpitching the first and pitching the correct amount in the second.

From that point of understanding the effects of pitching the correct amount of healthy yeast has dramatically improved my brewing.

I no longer have a fear of lager brewing. It's exactly the same as ale brewing if done correctly. It's just that with ale brewing, you can get away with a few more sins. So just make sure your pitching the right amount of healthy yeast and keeping it all at the correct temps and you'll be fine - lagers or ales.

 

[bear09]

@bear09 have a look into pre chillers for your immersion chiller. Or, as i do, no chill. Then when the cube is at ambient, chuck it into the fridge at desired ferment temp over night. Then you're confident you're pitching at the right temp.

I have 3 lagers lagering at the moment. I usually only do a single run each year at the run up to Oktoberfest for when i have friends and family over and knock back big steins east german food and listen to oompa music. This year, i have a much better understanding of my yeast handling, and from the latest samples my lagers have all come out quite clean, with perhaps just a touch of diacetyl in my Bo Pils (which is not totally out of style).

Last year i was getting abit of Acetaldehyde in my German pils, but not in my Munich Helles. I tracked this back to underpitching. I was using s189 in both, but did the old sprinkle 2 packs on the surface of the Ger Pils and repitched slurry to the Helles. So with further understanding i was underpitching the first and pitching the correct amount in the second.

From that point of understanding the effects of pitching the correct amount of healthy yeast has dramatically improved my brewing.

I no longer have a fear of lager brewing. It's exactly the same as ale brewing if done correctly. It's just that with ale brewing, you can get away with a few more sins. So just make sure your pitching the right amount of healthy yeast and keeping it all at the correct temps and you'll be fine - lagers or ales.

Hey Argon,

Thanks for the input. No chill and into the fridge - great idea - I might give that a shot. I thought of the idea of pre chilling but I think that might be a lot of stuffing around...

You raise the idea of yeast and pitching...

For ales I ususally use a wyeast smack pack into a 2L starter with a stir plate. I am pretty sure this gives me a good amount of yeast. My ales usually kick off in anywhere from 12-18 hours and ferment well within their ranges.

For a lager (smack pack) what would you recommend? 1 smack pack into 2L then into 4L?? Please advise.

Cheers again!

 

[hsb]

What does Acetaldehyde smell/taste like?

2 of my lager efforts to date have both been crippled by an overpowering taste that could be diacetyl, could be something else.
It's not an unpleasant taste, but not a pleasant one either, it just totally squashes all other flavour flat.

I've heard description of diacteyl as butter/butterscotch, this flavour doesn't really taste like that, I struggle to describe it.

Great points about ales being more forgiving/extra careful yeast treatment for lagers - I'm determined to nail a lager, my only success to date being a Pilsener that is just too damn malty!

I don't make 'punchy' ales, in the American style, but more delicately balanced English ones, so I think it is just a case of managing ale yeast better than lager yeast.

Kolsch/Witbier have been my cheat/workarounds, but a proper lager fermented low has got to be the goal.

 

[argon]

Hey Argon,

Thanks for the input. No chill and into the fridge - great idea - I might give that a shot. I thought of the idea of pre chilling but I think that might be a lot of stuffing around...

You raise the idea of yeast and pitching...

For ales I ususally use a wyeast smack pack into a 2L starter with a stir plate. I am pretty sure this gives me a good amount of yeast. My ales usually kick off in anywhere from 12-18 hours and ferment well within their ranges.

For a lager (smack pack) what would you recommend? 1 smack pack into 2L then into 4L?? Please advise.

Cheers again!

Not knowing your specifics, i'd recommend looking at Mr Malty Yeast Pitching calculator and enter as much of the information you have at hand as possible, including manufacturer's date of production on your smakpak, your OG and volume. EG, 23L of 1048 Lager, with 97% viability on a stirplate = 1.56L of yeast.

Just a have a go at it and i'm sure you'll find the info you need.

 

[bear09]

Will do - cheers!! Thanks!

 

[raven19]

What does Acetaldehyde smell/taste like?

Most people think of it like green apples (I know I do).

I've heard description of diacteyl as butter/butterscotch, this flavour doesn't really taste like that, I struggle to describe it.

Also sometimes popcorn like along with your description above.

Yeast given time will generally clear up diacetyl. Raise your lager temp to 22 ish for a few days once fermentation is complete prior to chilling back down (then transfer to keg/secondary).

 

[argon]

What does Acetaldehyde smell/taste like?

2 of my lager efforts to date have both been crippled by an overpowering taste that could be diacetyl, could be something else.
It's not an unpleasant taste, but not a pleasant one either, it just totally squashes all other flavour flat.

I've heard description of diacteyl as butter/butterscotch, this flavour doesn't really taste like that, I struggle to describe it.

Great points about ales being more forgiving/extra careful yeast treatment for lagers - I'm determined to nail a lager, my only success to date being a Pilsener that is just too damn malty!

I don't make 'punchy' ales, in the American style, but more delicately balanced English ones, so I think it is just a case of managing ale yeast better than lager yeast.

Kolsch/Witbier have been my cheat/workarounds, but a proper lager fermented low has got to be the goal.

I get a sharp, almost cidery flavour... can almost smell the headaches coming. Correct, diacetyl has a slick butteriness, that can be ok in small amounts in a pils and is sometimes desirable in english ales.

From my very limited understanding, you'll get Acetaldehyde from underpitching/yeast working too hard and Diacetyl from overpitching/yeast getting too lazy

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Hey Argon,

Thanks for the input. No chill and into the fridge - great idea - I might give that a shot. I thought of the idea of pre chilling but I think that might be a lot of stuffing around...

You raise the idea of yeast and pitching...

For ales I ususally use a wyeast smack pack into a 2L starter with a stir plate. I am pretty sure this gives me a good amount of yeast. My ales usually kick off in anywhere from 12-18 hours and ferment well within their ranges.

For a lager (smack pack) what would you recommend? 1 smack pack into 2L then into 4L?? Please advise.

Cheers again!

There is quiet a good graph in the book "yeast" that shows pitching rates in starters without a stirplate and shows different yields for different sized starters. What was interesting was that the more packs of yeast you pitched in a 2L starter the less the yield factor. If you were to pitch 1 pack (assuming it had 100 bill cells) into 5-9 L youd end up with about 300bill cells (not using a stir plate).

 

[Nick JD]

My usual lager pitch rate is about 9 million cells per ml, due to pitching a smackpack into a small batch.

I find it very, very difficult to taste the difference between 9 million pitched cold and the recommended 12 million in the same recipe (my Euro Pils) and don't bother with starters after find this out.

For Aussie Lagers I under-pitch dry yeast (12g in 16L) but at warm (low 20s) and find a few esters here and there are kinda needed.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

My usual lager pitch rate is about 9 million cells per ml, due to pitching a smackpack into a small batch.

I find it very, very difficult to taste the difference between 9 million pitched cold and the recommended 12 million in the same recipe (my Euro Pils) and don't bother with starters after find this out.

For Aussie Lagers I under-pitch dry yeast (12g in 16L) but at warm (low 20s) and find a few esters here and there are kinda needed.

I have only made 2 Lagers so far. I just pitched my usual 2L for 24hrs starter on stir plate with wyeast smack pack and pitched warm @ 20deg then dropped to 9deg for ferment over a couple of days and they both attenuated @ about 80%. They taste ok so far and have been Lagering for a few months now. Not sure of the cell count but it's likely to be around the 300bill mark.

 

[Dave70]

I really want to brew a nice malty lager as a dependible house brew but the first few have been ok but not great. Lagering time, less flavour to hide behind. So what are some tips that made your lagers good.

Considered brewing an altbier? That's kind of like a lager-ish ale. I've got one bubbling away currently.

Pitching rates as mentioned by previous callers is a biggie as is temp control. Without it, you may end up with the yeasties throwing all sort's of unwanted flavors.
Plus, crash chill the shit out of the fermenter at near freeing for a week or so before kegging / bottling. If there's a beer that doesn't benefit from this treatment, I've yet to see or drink it.

Which of course, is entirely possible.

 

[Aus_Rider_22]

I am personally yet to try a liquid lager yeast, mainly due to the fact that I never attempted a starter and the fact that if you don't make a decent starter you would need 3.4 packs of lager yeast for a 20L 4.7% beer.

I have used single packs of s-189 at 15degrees and was fine. Haven't really got right into the Lagers as much.

 

[MarkBastard]

The only difference I really find is having to pitch twice the amount of yeast (dry yeast) which costs twice the amount of money, and fermenting / conditioning for longer.